Bishop Hill Heartland issues legal notices
Feb 19, 2012 Climate: fakegate The Heartland Institute has issued legal notices to at least two of those who have been engaging in dubious tactics after the faking of the strategy memo became clear.
Firstly there is DeSmog and secondly there is Greg Laden, the blogger who was the subject of considerable interest among Tallbloke's legal team a few weeks back.
...we respectfully demand: (1) that you remove both the Fake Memo and the Alleged Heartland Documents from your web site; (2) that you remove from your web site all posts that refer or relate in any manner to the Fake Memo and the Alleged Heartland Documents; (3) that you remove from your web site any and all quotations from the Fake Memo and the Alleged Heartland Documents; (4) that you publish retractions on your web site of prior postings; and (5) that you remove all such documents from your server.
Reader Comments (201)
@Russell, and precisely what does that have to do with the issue at hand?
Or in your eyes, are not all equal in the eyes of the law?
Some are more equal than others? People like yourself perhaps?
That is just a rant, fortunately the legal system is not run by people like yourself.
Russell, that last para was just sensational!
C'mon, come clean, you're Prof Sokal aren't you?
If not, have a gold star for effort.
Agree on Russell's magnificent paragraph. I'd like to borrow most of it.
At once over-lawyered and scientifically outclassed, the AGW Project has provided a very poor return on cultural capital for the corporate rent seekers and globalists that subsidize it. One has a positive duty to warn Intellectually serious people to subject its offerings to fiduciary fact checking as a matter of due course, as they tend to implode on even cursory scientific examination.
"At once over-lawyered and scientifically outclassed, it has provided a very poor return on cultural capital for the corporate rent seekers and Dominionist religious zealots that subsidize it. One has a positive duty to warn Intellectually serious Conservatives to subject its offerings to fiduciary fact checking as a matter of due course, as they tend to implode on even cursory scientific examination."
Que?
"inquisitional barratry", "Dominionist religious zealots". Using Zipf's law, or some corrollary thereof, I think we can conclude that 'Russell' is indeed Russell Seitz, he of the eternal purple prose that so enlivened this blog a few months ago, especially on this thread. I keep a very fond memory of his phrases such as "the semiotic comedy of manners that renders sites like this and WUWT so perversely enjoyable".
@Jeremy Harvey
I missed that thread at the time but found this bit:
"Instead of a scientific counterestablishment orchestrating its own interdisciplinary case, this site , like WUWT is a bibliographic wasteland, an intellectual cottage industry catering to the politically incensed and science hobbyists ill equipped to fathom or sort out the good the bad and the ugly in the voluminous literature this subject produces."
Yep, it's him.
And this:
"As to your last charge, conservative Bishops imputing climatological expertise to Horace-spouting viscounts are in no position to criticize ordinary bits of scholarly apparatus, i.e. the vide supra seen above.As a fellow tory I hope your pseudoepiscopal snit subsides, lest it pass peer review at Private Eye, and earn a tenner for Mann's defense fund, which really wouldn't do."
Maybe he's joking with us.
First, after reviewing that previous thread from Russell, I would like to apologise. It wasn't a rant, but his unique style. Sorry.
My meagre business derived, "one idea to a sentence", pales in insignificance. I am humbled.
I agree with edward getty’s comment at 9:35 PM (yesterday) and pointman’s at 12:47 AM. And, as some here don’t seem to understand what’s going on, I’ll repeat a few things I said yesterday on the Josh post - mentioned by Don Pablo above.
Heartland has every reason for taking it nice and slow – no rush, no threats. It is issuing (I suspect to everyone who published and commented on the “Fake Memo” etc. – including therefore the Guardian and BBC) carefully worded letters obviously written following sound legal advice. They’re specifically intended to support, if necessary, an eventual legal argument that Heartland had acted courteously, consistently and reasonably in unpleasant and trying circumstances and, despite provocation (e.g. continuing publication of and comment on the documents), had done everything possible to get redress without having to resort to litigation - all of which would weigh heavily in its favour in court. Heartland doesn’t have to prove anything at this stage. And BTW, if eventually it sues for defamation (a civil not criminal action), the burden of proof would be on any defendant that posted and commented on the “Fake Memo” to show that it was in fact genuine: IMO that would be a very heavy burden in this case.
Heartland is playing what may be a long game where care and patience usually prevails. It seems to me that it’s playing it well and that DeSmog will find it's fallen into a trap and was unwise to continue publication. We’ll see.
Lovely, isn't it, sHx?
When I read the words of Russell Seitz I hear the voice of Kenneth Williams. Is that just me?
Carry On Blogging.
Russell actually reminds me of the compere of the Good Old Days, Leonard Sachs.
All together now...
Come, come, come and make eyes at me
down at the Old Bull and Bush,
Laa la la la la
I'm loving Fakegate and the contributions of Russel and other earnest apologists. It's all funnier than a barrel full of monkeys.
Jiminy Cricket
Leonard Sachs. Bang on!
Jiminy Cricket
I had fingers poised to say exactly the same till I realised you'd got there first!
My first reaction to that 7.26AM post was that Russell subscribes to a higher branch of Troll Central than the average visitor from outer space. Obviously they only work Mondays to Fridays which explains why he's simply been treading water all weekend.
I take it we have consensus that Russell could not have authored the fake strategy document.
Bast and Taylor? I like that.
There are literally hundreds, if not thousands, who say the things Taylor says on his Forbes blog, perhaps even better. But that doesn't bother the warmies. What always gets them is the saying of the same thing at the all-important *prestige venue* Who knew that Forbes.com was one? These propagandists worship the prestige venue, and prostrate at its power. They don't care that you or I know - they only care, that those who don't know, do not come to know.
What more proof can be had, than the faker's fake memo itself?
If I were Heartland, I would hope the string of Gleick vs Taylor posts go on and on, rather than 'keep opposing voices out'. The faker appears to have simply transplanted his thinking onto Heartland.
"Stupidity is always astounding; no matter how often one encounters it"
-Jean Cocteau
Well, it looks as if DeSmogblog is up for a fight, even on the allegedly "fake" Climate Strategy document. Their rationale is that, although the Heartland Institute claim that the document contains "obvious and gross misstatements" of fact, they cannot find any, and HI has not indicated any.
As has been pointed out here, the onus will be on DeSmogblog to prove the authenticity of the document should this end in the civil courts. I doubt that the fact that the document contains some verifiable material will weigh as heavily with the courts as it does, apparently, with the bloggers.
Feb 20, 2012 at 9:15 AM | Robin Guenier
I agree!
Good lawyers are good, not because of what they do, but because of what they avoid doing.
And it is the timing of what they do that is most the difficult, doing it before the event.
Nicholas Hallam:
Yes, DeSmog seems determined to tough it out. I think that’s likely to be a mistake – maybe a big one. You’re right: if it came to court, the onus would be on DeSmog to show that the alleged fake was genuine (at least that’s my understanding of UK law and I think it’s the same in the US). In my view, that could prove very difficult – arguably impossible. And, of course, if it fails, the fact that it consistently and egregiously ignored Heartland’s attempts to give it a way out, would count heavily against it when it came to damages.
Interesting.
@Russell:
"Copner, the reader stats for all articles including Michaels', Taylor's and Gleick's , are posted by Forbes daily."
Thank you. I was not aware of that.
I am sure it would be fascinating to read. Where do I find this information?
Then again, this may represent the start of the death throes of the movement. Apparently the California Academy of Sciences just shut down their global warming display because no one was coming to see it:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/02/19/california-academy-of-sciences-pulls-the-plug-on-their-climate-change-exhibit/
@neill... maybe HI had some bouncers on the entrance discouraging people from entering? The failure of any green enterprise just has to be due to them and their nefarious ((c) Warmists) connections.
Why else would it fail?
Neill,
Clearly all they need is more alarmism....and cow bell!
Regards
Mailman
sHx
"Maybe he's joking with us"
Too earnest for that, I think, but he could still make Pseuds Corner.
Feb 20, 2012 at 9:42 AM | Jiminy Cricket
Russell actually reminds me of the compere of the Good Old Days, Leonard Sachs.
=========
But after several overblown and florid sentences describing the next act, Leonard Sachs always summed it up in a few words, "The Amazing Waldo is a juggler" or sometimes one word, "Juggling".
Why do I get the feeling that some bullies who has been terrorising the pupils and staff has been sent to the headmaster's office.
Russell. Scrub my question. I see the views now. Needed to turn the contrast on my screen up (or get better eyes)
In response to GrantB---Here is where Heartland alleges a crime, but maybe Mr. Bast just sent it by accident to the wrong address. He should show the email that was send from the heartland. It will show what documents were attached and to whom they were sent.
Heartland (2-15-12) claims:
The stolen documents were obtained by an unknown person who fraudulently assumed the identity of a Heartland board member and persuaded a staff member here to “re-send” board materials to a new email address. Identity theft and computer fraud are criminal offenses subject to imprisonment. We intend to find this person and see him or her put in prison for these crimes.
http://heartland.org/press-releases/2012/02/15/heartland-institute-responds-stolen-and-fake-documents
Further to my observations above, here (from Jo Nova’s site) is some advice from “memoryvault” to Greg Laden (another recipient of Heartland’s “comply and desist” (C&D) message):
memoryvault attempted to post this excellent advice on Greg Laden’s website. But it wasn’t published – it seems memoryvault is seen there (as he puts it) as “part of some organised extreme right wing conspiracy aimed at intimidating young Greg Laden into backing down to the Heartland Institute’s demands”.
Well, he tried – these people seem determined to get deeper into the mire.
Er, Your Grace ... I think your post above may be on the wrong thread.
[BH adds: thanks - fixed]
I was ready to feel sorry for the guy as I agree ... "as a fellow human being I could not just sit idly by and watch you make it even worse for yourself. "
But when I heard that they wouldn't put it on the website ...
... they were offered good advice, freely given.
Now they will have to take the advice they can afford, at the cost they can afford with a penalty I doubt they will be able to afford.
They're going down!
I wonder...does HI really want to get into legal wrangles? I mean, after salaries and stationery, plus electricity bills, how many lawyers do they want to pay really with 6M$ a year? That would explain why they have opted for "polite notices".
Am afraid the warmists can outgun HI in that respect, many many times.
Robin Guenier
You clearly have a sound foundation in not only the law, but the practice of law. I was a paralegal in contract law but did witness enough law suits to know what you are saying is absolutely true.
As you probably know, the US has much weaker libel/slander laws, and in addition, the US copyright laws are weak as well when compared to the UK. Still, what you say is the pretty much in line with US law and practice.
I, for one, do not see much coming out of the theft of the HI documents. There are far too many "whistle blower" cases wrapped up in the First Amendment -- which the SCOUS defends vigorously -- for that to go forward.
The fake document, on the other hand, is defamation, and as it clearly was an attempt to reduce contributions to HI, there is economic impact -- i.e. there is harm.
Now, given the weak attempt to hide the author of the fake document by first printing it and then scanning it back in to remove the XMP information embedded in it, it appears likely that Desmog thought that they could get away with it because they are located in Canada and therefore outside of US civil jurisdiction. That should be the case except that Brendan DeMelle, who is the Executive Director and Managing Editor of DeSmogBlog, lives in Seattle. He can be served with a subpena. With that discovery can be imposed on him to show where that document came from. Failure to comply can be costly.
These people are not anywhere as smart at they think they are.
So, Robin, shall we retire to the pub, have a pint and watch the Kabuki Dance that will be the civil suit unfold? You are right that it will be expensive, but the Kock brothers probably will contribute to HI's legal fund. I am sure Soros is already writing a check for Desmog, so the battle will probably occur.
Memoryvault is 100% correct. Thank you for posting it, Robin. Perhaps our resident trolls will understand why we are all smiling at them.
Don Pablo de la Sierra, from a moral viewpoint, it is probably as well that people are able to publish material ... and even if not law, if you genuinely believed the "public had a right to know", that might be enough for me to let them get away with it.
But, if you are going to publish illegally obtained information, the onus is then on you to protect the people who you stole it from from any mistake frauds etc.
By the sound of it, this is not some two bit school boy who doesn't know better. This is a well funded site with access to lawyers who could check and double check and had the time to cross-check what was in it.
From a moral point of view, when you publish private material, you deny people the ability to protect themselves. Therefore the only person who can protect them is the person publishing.
So there is a moral duty on those publishing private material against the wishes of others to protect them in a way that they themselves would protect themselves from false allegations.
in other words, they took away the responsibility of protecting the Heartland Institutes reputation from them and then failed completely utterly and with total disregard to protect that reputation from forgery.
So, no matter the law, the morality is that even if the forged document was "in the public interest", those releasing it would have to prove that it was unreasonable for them to have known it was forged.
From what I can see, that seems unlikely.
MM:
At first that was my view. As I said on the “Josh” thread, I thought Heartland’s threats were “little more than potentially embarrassing bluster”. But now I’m sure they’re serious: they’ve opted for “polite notices” precisely because that’s, by far, their best legal strategy (see above for an explanation).
Yes, overall the warmists can outgun them. Or at least they have far greater resource - although it may be that a Heartland backer sees an important opportunity here. But, in any case, I suspect the more substantial warmists are being advised that they’re not going to win this one – leaving the more naïve and less well-heeled such as DeSmog and Greg Laden swinging in the wind.
Don Pablo:
I agree about the importance of the “Fake Memo” – anyone continuing to publish (and, worse, to comment on) that is on a hiding to nothing. I think any court where the principles of English Law apply (e.g. both the USA and Canada) would be seriously unimpressed by a defendant who – after clear warning – had continued to publish a defamatory document not knowing (or apparently caring) whether or not it was authentic.
Watching this develop from the pub is an excellent idea. Except for one thing: this is going to take months and I'm not sure I can handle that much beer.
Robin Guenier
We should look for a pub with a clean loo, for sure.
Don Pablo:
I live next door to a pretty good pub. They do B&B - I could book you a room for a month or two.
Robin Guenier
While your points to MM are correct in my view, I suspect that HI will find a legal white knight because it is an excellent opportunity to give the warmists a bloody nose. As it is, Fakegate may be the worst thing to happen to them. It will be a cause célèbre that will brandish the banner of "Fraud" all over the movement.
It was a VERY dumb move on their part.
Don Pablo:
I agree.
Something it's easy to overlook in considering the HI response is that the USA is a very litigious society and people tend to think more in terms of legal remedies than shrugging things off.
Smogblog have put out a 'put up or shut up' response to the Heartland letter.
I can envisage some form of injunction being served within 14 - 21 days.
I see that our "friend" Hengist has commented on Laden's post on this subject, with his usual lack of reading comprehension skills. If he is deranged enough to take advice from Hengist, we all know what will happen to Greg Laden. Whatever we might feel about the justice system, it is never wise to ignore legal letters unless you have some understanding of what might be coming down the rifle in your direction.
spence:
That sounds interesting ... but have you got a link? All I can see is its post dated yesterday
Following the diogenes reference to the Hengist post on the Greg Laden blog, I thought it might be interesting to have a look. It was. A lot of commentators are advising GL to back off – and BTW the memoryvault advice was posted (seems it was caught in moderation). Here’s the best:
Robin Guenier, that's the one, the latest post. dated 19th Feb is a 'put up or shut up' declaration.
(DeSmogBlog will leave them in place - in the public interest)
Just back from reading the main page of Desmog.com. They wrapped themselves in the Green Flag of Truth and Morality. Not smart. I think they really need to read memoryvault's posting that Robin Guenier reproduced above.
It just may come to pass that participants in the legal suit Kabuki Dance that Robin Guenier and I were settling in to watch might exchange those dainty little fans the dancers love to wave about for Samurai swords.
This could be a epic battle. Gonna be interesting.
My bet -- both Greg and Desmog suddenly back down once the power elite of the warmists realize just how badly they can be hurt in this. They could end up with the "FRAUDULENT" label plastered all over them.
Better for them to cut their losses and let the idiots who caused it hang in the wind.
Gotta run to the store for more pop corn, that's for sure.
Robin - I imagine thaqt laden is small fry, do you think that Heartland would go afrter him or after the "publisher" eg the webhost?
Went to Greg's blog and found a second memory vault post which is really worth reading if you wish to understand the legal aspects of this.
Either he is a lawyer with some experience, or a litigant with a lot of experience. In either case, he is absolutely correct. It is the way things work.