Discussion > Clarity in climate science: proposed experiments to test fundamentals of AGW
I wanted to make this a discussion and to effectively crowd source ideas as to what it would take and cost to perform experiments on CO2's ability to interact with IR and heat its surroundings.
I'm sure posters and regulars on this site can dig up some previous attempts to measure the heating effects of Co2 (I've seen a few myself). But the real reason is I would like to see how much it would cost to do these experiments and propose experimental set-ups along with characterisation procedures that will ensure we can eliminate convection effects.
There appears to be a severe lack on mainstream climate sites about experiments in Co2 heating. There are lots of theoretical notions and models but you would think that there would be common resource of work done to show the thermal influence of Co2. Maybe this can be it.
I noticed a poster "munroad" also asked for evidence of the greenhouse effect. I actually want to propose experiments to get data on it. It would also be interesting to estimate a cost of the work and materials and then compare it to the monies involved with climate studies and modelling. That might make a very interesting post on the main site.
So, the first experiment I propose would be the bog standard Co2 in a box with IR light shone through it. Let's call it Co2 Experiment A
More specifically Experiment A would involve a glass box/container or tube, preferably one with high (over 95%) IR reflectivity, particulary in the 4 to 20 micron region. This would be so that the IR light would reflect back into the Co2 and "enhance" any absorption effect. A second box could be used that is completely transparent to IR so that this reflection effect doesn't happen. We woudl compare the behaviour of the two (a bit like the R Woods experiment but with less uncertainties).
Both boxes would contain a blackened bottom (with emissitivity close to 1) that can be heated so that we can heat any gas inside the container to perform convection characterisation. The high emissitivity should also react to IR, and we could test this.
Both ends of the glass box would be transparent to IR radiation (NaCl glass is commonly used) and this could be confirmed by spectroscopic measurements as would the IR-transparent box
We could use a pumping system rather than a static situation to maintain humidity and pressure and we could use various gases including NO2, N2, O2, He and other gases to cover different heat capacities and control measurements.
One thing we would need to ensure is that we have characterised the thermal performance of our system under various control scenarios. We'd use this compare to the effect of shining IR in the box and seeing any thermal effects that occur.
I would also like to see a different test done (Experiment B) where IR light of varying intensities is shown on water to see how hot it gets. Experiment A could also test the emitted spectrum from Co2 to see how it evolves with concentration and heat.
So, what are your thoughts?
Note that proactive comments are appreciated rather than "you're wrong", " Al Gore showed that" or "theory says so" etc etc. That's all well and good but I like to see data collected properly with all the assumptions and experimental limitations included where possible. I think any reasonable person would also.
I wanted to make this a discussion and to effectively crowd source ideas as to what it would take and cost to perform experiments on CO2's ability to interact with IR and heat its surroundings.
I'm sure posters and regulars on this site can dig up some previous attempts to measure the heating effects of Co2 (I've seen a few myself). But the real reason is I would like to see how much it would cost to do these experiments and propose experimental set-ups along with characterisation procedures that will ensure we can eliminate convection effects.
There appears to be a severe lack on mainstream climate sites about experiments in Co2 heating. There are lots of theoretical notions and models but you would think that there would be common resource of work done to show the thermal influence of Co2. Maybe this can be it.
I noticed a poster "munroad" also asked for evidence of the greenhouse effect. I actually want to propose experiments to get data on it. It would also be interesting to estimate a cost of the work and materials and then compare it to the monies involved with climate studies and modelling. That might make a very interesting post on the main site.
So, the first experiment I propose would be the bog standard Co2 in a box with IR light shone through it. Let's call it Co2 Experiment A
More specifically Experiment A would involve a glass box/container or tube, preferably one with high (over 95%) IR reflectivity, particulary in the 4 to 20 micron region. This would be so that the IR light would reflect back into the Co2 and "enhance" any absorption effect. A second box could be used that is completely transparent to IR so that this reflection effect doesn't happen. We woudl compare the behaviour of the two (a bit like the R Woods experiment but with less uncertainties).
Both boxes would contain a blackened bottom (with emissitivity close to 1) that can be heated so that we can heat any gas inside the container to perform convection characterisation. The high emissitivity should also react to IR, and we could test this.
Both ends of the glass box would be transparent to IR radiation (NaCl glass is commonly used) and this could be confirmed by spectroscopic measurements as would the IR-transparent box
We could use a pumping system rather than a static situation to maintain humidity and pressure and we could use various gases including NO2, N2, O2, He and other gases to cover different heat capacities and control measurements.
One thing we would need to ensure is that we have characterised the thermal performance of our system under various control scenarios. We'd use this compare to the effect of shining IR in the box and seeing any thermal effects that occur.
I would also like to see a different test done (Experiment B) where IR light of varying intensities is shown on water to see how hot it gets. Experiment A could also test the emitted spectrum from Co2 to see how it evolves with concentration and heat.
So, what are your thoughts?
Note that proactive comments are appreciated rather than "you're wrong", " Al Gore showed that" or "theory says so" etc etc. That's all well and good but I like to see data collected properly with all the assumptions and experimental limitations included where possible. I think any reasonable person would also.