Discussion > What do Entropic Man and Raff really believe.
CO2 has no warming effect after about 220 ppm (Ice core records/AR reports)
In 750,000 years of ice core records warming never once followed a rise in CO2 levels.
In 4 billion years of geological records the planet never became dangerously warm despite experiencing massively high levels of atmospheric CO2.
What do you think EM?
Dung
Entropic Man
I wish her a speedy recovery, and a quick return home.
SandyS
EM I hope Mrs. EM is all right, and all is well for you.
geronimo
Sorry to hear that, Entropic man.
Take care of yourself and her.
M Courtney
I see from the other thread that EM says his wife is still in hospital, but he welcomes the distraction of the chat here.
I think you are bullying him a bit
@TinyCO2 said basically "Are you actually minimising your own CO2"
- EM replied "I already have ..by limiting the sixe of my family."
..Nothing wrong with that, Yes we know it's not a recent decision, but there it's not the obvious HYPOCRISY that we expect from Greens... like "mother earth hippies" who moan about CO2 yet recently continued to have lots of babies..and/or bought hobby farms in the countryside.
stewgreen
- When I talked about true-believers thought processes being the same as BELIEVING IN GHOSTS, that was not supposed to be an insult, but rather a serious observation about how we get into firmly believing in things beyond the line of evidence..Most of us here were firm believers who stopped and rowed back from our old position, when evidence showed the IPCC position was not a concrete as the GreenBlob made out.
- I think this process whereby we jump from a proven story straight into unproven stories is something to do with the mind works at a neurological level. See how your night-time dreams are constructed so rapidly moving from meme to meme, that's a sign of those memes being connected by deep automatic channels flowing like a stream. Rather than stopping at each node to check the directions, they FLOW ON and then backtrack when an error is found, but the flow is so strong that backtracking is hard to do.
Last night on R4 I heard a poem saying the same thing
"Because there is a consensus there is a temptation to follow a path without thinking"
* The Calf-Path - Poem by Sam Walter Foss *
One day, through the primeval wood,
A calf walked home, as good calves should;
But made a trail all bent askew,
A crooked trail as all calves do.
...
And from that day, o’er hill and glade,
Through those old woods a path was made;
....
skip verses
A moral lesson this might teach,
Were I ordained and called to preach;
For men are prone to go it blind
Along the calf-paths of the mind,
And work away from sun to sun
To do what other men have done.
They follow in the beaten track,
And out and in, and forth and back,
And still their devious course pursue,
To keep the path that others do.
But how the wise old wood-gods laugh,
Who saw the first primeval calf!
Ah! many things this tale might teach --
But I am not ordained to preach.
stewgreen
oops bad links
..the The audio here
..the skipped verses are here
BH post thingis running so slow it's difficultto check the post beforehand
stewgreen
@TinyCO2 said basically "Are you actually minimising your own CO2"
Nope, that wasn't what I was getting at. "Belief", whether it's in AGW or ghosts or god, tends to be a paltry thing. Few people actually change their lifestyles because of their beliefs. Thankfully in the case of extremists. It's a common habit to attribute any behaviour in line with a stated belief, towards that cause but few make an effort to go beyond what they would have done anyway. If I wanted to, I could sit very comfortably on the warmist side and could have been raking in the subsidies by now but it goes against my beliefs. My small CO2 footprint has nothing to do with AGW.
Too few warmists have really contemplated cutting CO2. It's something someone else will sort out if warmists whine enough. It's the job of Governments or Big Business. NO! It's us. There is no magic wand in the energy production bag. Until there is, there is only one way to really cut CO2 and that's lifestyle change. Huge lifestyle change. I don't want to be lectured to on AGW by people who haven't experienced pain of reducing CO2. You'd know it if you saw it because those people would have humility about what they were asking. They wouldn't wander round the internet smugly taunting 'deniers'.
Remember I've worked for a company that was strangled to death by high energy prices. Trust me it was brutal. It was as painful as the end of peak coal mining in this country but the workers went quietly because they knew there was no alternative. As an industry it had no future here. The CO2 hasn't been saved - all the work went to China or the US. It was purely a financial decision.
Few of the warmists are at the front line for pain from national CO2 reduction. They won't be working in a high energy business or a power station fighting for survival because some inefficient renewable is not only propped up by subsidies but gets priority on demand. They're people in offices where the greatest demand on the power is the kitchen fridge and the kettle. Flights of course don't count because they're essential. Really? Do we think any of ATTP's conferences are 'essential'? In a world starved of energy will we want to squander it on astromers, climate scientists or Guardian journalists? Perhaps when their jobs are threatened they might wonder a bit more about whether it's all necessary.
I know that EM isn't a bad sort. He's just enjoys an argument, but he doesn't believe in AGW any more than most people believe in ghosts. It's fun to be a little scared on occassion, but it doesn't define their lives.
TinyCO2
Take care of Mrs EM and yourself.