Alan kendall on Jun 27, 2016 at 1:27 PM

All the suggestions have their weaknesses, but they do offer a better chance of avoiding a procedural muddle.

I'll rewrite, shorten, the second statement:
Cameron could have NOT promised a referendum at the last election: UKIP might have gained a few more MPs, maybe gaining tens of seats but, while not impossible given the Brexit result, UKIP winning a majority by 2020 and getting a Brexit would be unlikely.

... he has always been known as proEU ...
You weren't at Cameron's leadership campaign speech, then? Neither was I :) , but I heard a TV report that he had persuaded some Tory MPs that he was a Eurosceptic and that swung the vote his way. BUT he never persuaded me. Note the vagueness:

It was possible to be Eurosceptic and care for the hungry of Africa and the compassionate Tory right swooned.

He should have lied about now being a leaver
See previous point.

He should have remained aloof.
It is what Harold Wilson did, and it worked: he continued in office, so there was no procedural muddle.

I think you need to be more specific [about running a fair, even handed referendum]
Not having Project Fear, which has been discussed earlier: a punishment budget, WWIII etc.; giving Brexit some civil Service resource, and not funding a leaflet out of taxpayers money etc.

positive reasons for staying
I am short on detail because there was so little to mention.

restrained celebs from exercising their right to speak out
This was typed tongue in cheek, but it is not unknown for outspoken people to help their cause, by not saying too much. And, surely, some of those Elite I mentioned were encouraged ... 'back of the line'? They should have been politely told to refrain.

It was when Cameron returned from his renegotiation, and the Continentals were perplexed at the minuscule demands, nay requests, that I realised that the referendum was not offering the Status Quo, especially as he had irritated them as well.

We will see if this is true:
The foreign ministers of France and Germany are due to reveal a blueprint to effectively do away with individual member states in what is being described as an “ultimatum”.

Under the radical proposals EU countries will lose the right to have their own army, criminal law, taxation system or central bank, with all those powers being transferred to Brussels.
Express:
European SUPERSTATE to be unveiled: EU nations 'to be morphed into one' post-Brexit

I wonder if the Scots will take to it? It would solve the dilemma of which currency they would use.

SandyS on Jun 27, 2016 at 1:32 PM
Unfortunately German car makers aren't German politicians who may/will have a completely different agenda.
It is following what many said would happen after a Brexit vote: the German car industry would be worried and would lobby their politicians.

Could I suggest that basing policy on articles in the Daily Mail is probably not a good idea.
Are you saying that the German industrialist didn't say what was reported?

it was £350 million no ifs or buts
It was the bus belonging to Vote Leave, not Leave EU, so you need to take it up with them. The matter has already been discussed, before the vote, so any fallout should have affected the result. Are you suggesting that we rerun the referendum because of that?

They could have said that the EU grab £350m a week, which they do, but then return some, thanks to Margaret Thatcher's rebate, and EU labelled items over which we do not have control.

no warning that they should work harder and pay less tax
I really don't understand that you cannot have heard of this common relationship. And it doesn't have to be 'work harder'. It can mean 'get trained up' or 'work smarter'. The world is changing and we need to adapt. There has been talk of Ireland reuniting: do you expect NI to continue receiving British subsidies? Any subsidies will be determined by the government of the day, so cannot be set in advance.

A 1 minute 11 second video:
“There are some threats from the EU that will no longer be relevant. So, the idea there might be a tax on financial transactions – which George Osborne challenged, took to the European Court of Justice and lost his case – now we won’t be involved in that, and my guess is that any attempt in Europe to impose such a tax will never take place now because business will simply come to the City… There are obviously uncertainties in the short run… but the idea that this is a doom and gloom story seems to be wildly exaggerated.”
Mervyn King: Doom And Gloom Wildly Exaggerated’

SandyS on Jun 27, 2016 at 5:57 PM
"Did it matter to those viewing whose bus it was on ..."
I would have thought that it was obvious that you should be asking the group responsible for the sign: only they will be accountable for the message.

Yet another report on avoiding tariffs:
Scandinavian supplier association, FKG says the UK's shock vote last week (23 June) to exit the European Union (EU) should not trigger tariff impositions as the impact from the decision continues to reverberate around the Continent.
...
Sidahl also expressed similar views to that of VDA president, Matthias Wissmann, who insisted it was in "nobody's interest" to impose customs restrictions between Britain and the EU.
"No trade barriers" says FKG amid Brexit fallout

We are in trying times: it's called negotiation, which requires a bit of confidence to see things through, to see new opportunities as the old fades into the past.

SandyS on Jun 27, 2016 at 9:45 PM

If you are complaining about the bus slogan, how can I defend something for which I am not responsible? Neither is the group that I joined responsible: it was a Vote Leave bus, organised by a completely different organisation. That is what has annoyed me about the EU: the separation of authority, responsibility and implementation, and I had hoped it might stop after the successful referendum. It is just bad management to direct complaints at those not involved at all. And I did offer an improvement!

You won't get further in your desire for a culprit by asking the wrong person.

I am interested in the current situation.

The Remainers had government backing, plenty of resources, access to the PM who had been conducting the supposed renegotiation and set the whole timetable, while the Brexiters had to start from scratch, and that was only after the Prime Minister stopped his Brexit ministers from campaigning, while his side played with an open goal in front of them. And yet Brexit won!

Cameron's government passed the legislation for this referendum and did not prepare for a Brexit victory. It has triggered pandemonium in Brussels, as they didn't plan for a Brexit victory either. And now, Parliament is thinking of not carrying out the will of the people.

It isn't the first time that it has happened in an EU country.

Labour can't oppose effectively because they are having their own pandemonium, so we are unable to hold the Government to account.

Mervyn King has said that Remain has treated Leave like 'IDIOTS', and they were the Government:
Remain has treated Leave like 'IDIOTS': Mervyn King says Brexit 'does NOT mean job cuts'

And we pay these people to represent us!

It will be interesting to see what the future holds.

SandyS on Jun 28, 2016 at 7:57 AM
All I wanted was an opinion ...
You wanted me to defend someone else's work. And I did give an opinion: I suggested something better.

Living in interesting times is something I would rather have avoided.
Kate Hoey: The price of true freedom is uncertainty, the price of certainty is a form of servitude, and we need to set our country free from that future servitude.

In the book In or Out? The 60-Minute Plain-Speaking Guide to the EU Referendum, on page 257, there is this information:

... if you're already resident or have property in an EU country such as Spain, Portugal, or France (and of course Ireland) , then your status would remain unchanged. It's known as an "executed right" under article 70b of the Vienna Convention. There is also the well-recognised principle of acquired (vested) rights.

So, nothing to do with the EU, and it should lessen the fears of those in this position. Yet the Remainers, who have government resources available, and the BBC, with plenty of lawyers, investigative journalists, air time and licence fees, were very indifferent to informing the public about these rights.

It is very puzzling as they have always been so very enthusiastic about 'uman rights in the past!

I think we can extend the title of this thread to:

EU must be joking, but we, the British people, are not.

More contributions are welcome, but I hope that other threads are started, as they have been, with a different focus, as I think 'we have all moved on' after last week's result.

Here are David Cameron's words of comfort to us all, found in the HM Government booklet that arrived on everyone's doormat just before referendum purdah commenced:

"This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide."