Discussion > First steps towards a sucessful Brexit
My WAG.
There are some key things that need to be done and unfortunately the first involves accepting that mass immigration IS a problem. Much more has to be done for those who are suffering because of immigration, and those who are benefitting from it need to pay up. It's no accident that London, which benefits hugely from immigration and has a lot of infrastructure and amenities to compensate, was more enthusiastic about staying in the EU. More enthusiastic mind, 40% voted to leave. Step one is to stop calling those people xenophobic or racist. That's just an excuse to shut them up and marginalise them and it doesn't make the resentment go away, it fuels it. Recognition needs to be made that there's a big difference between a Parisian stock broker and a Romania farm labourer.
The UK absolutely needs the right to send criminals home, no matter what awaits them. It should also have the right to refuse entry to convicted criminals. The citizenship test should ensure that immigrants know the law (eg FGM and homophobia being illegal) and get dual citizenship rather than full citizenship so that if they break a significant crime they can be expelled and stripped of their British identity. Parents with children born here must take them with them (unless their crime precludes it or the other parent remains). Those children would have the right to return freely once they reach adulthood. Allowences for cultural differences when committing crimes needs to stop. Rules need to be colour blind. Integration should be the priority, not preserving cultural identities.
I suspect we would have to pay a substantial fee to the EU which would be roughly in line with our net contribution to Europe but be dependent on the balance of trade. More like a tariff than a measure of our overall prosperity. We need to initially keep all spending projects going but change them based on UK view of the situation. eg stop funding NGOs that the public wouldn't support. Cough - Greenpeace. There are probably a raft of EU promotion groups that could be shown the door and the money better spent. The City needs to stump up more money to make the effects apparent elsewhere. Sweetheart deals need to stop. If the Country wants more business it would be better to spread a lower tax rate across the board that give whacking gifts to companies that would trade here anyway. Do we see Starbucks leaving if they had to pay the standard rate?
University funding should be focussed towards STEM subjects and other areas where university educations will truly benefit. Industry (including arts and TV) should have more influence on subjects offered to fit their needs.
TBC
TinyCO2
TinyCO2
To Be Confirmed.
SandyS
Steve Richards
Point 1 it's interesting that neither side did that during the campaign and we still don;t know the details. It would have made several things claimed by various parties easier to verify.
SandyS
Follow the steps of Norway and Switzerland.
Don't let the disingenuous hype of the remainer minority derail the move towards democracy and away from the anti-democratic corporate bureaucracy of the EU.
hunter
https://s3.amazonaws.com/jo.nova/politics/uk/brexit/nobrainer-brexit.jpg
hunter
TinyCO2, I see no reason to pay anything towards the EU for access.
They will get access to our large market which is worth a lot.
Yes the EU will want free movement and a large fee, but we should hold out for no free movement and no fee.
I suspect that they will agree, why? because it makes economic sense to the Germans who need our market to sell into.
We all should by now have witnessed all of the REMAIN FEAR stories being or been reversed.
Major business leaders have now reversed their doom laden outbursts to: "we can thrive in this new reality"!!!!
EU countries want our BREXIT to succeed, the EU does not.
Steve Richards
It has been pointed out that every country not fully in the EU, like Norway and Switzerland, have a unique relationship. No two are the same. Britain needs to follow the crowd: a unique relationship, that we like! :)
I saw IDS on TV, (with Andrew Marr, on Sunday, I think), and he was as methodical as the first post of this thread. He said that invoking Article 50 didn't need to be done immediately, but that working parties were needed, ASAP, to formulate the shape of our negotiations. In other words, we need to agree on the questions before we start searching for answers. It does hint that Cameron did absolutely (expletive deleted, meaning) 'nothing' to prepare for a Brexit win as well as tainting so many senior MPs with the Remain label, so involving non-Tory Brexiters should be a win-win.
Steve, we do need to "make a detailed list of all money coming FROM the EU", but I bet one already exists, and it is being 'looked after' by those who supported Remain. The Brexit success should remedy that problem, or the 'information carer' should go!
It would also be a good idea to inform the public about peoples rights such the importance of Article 70b of the Vienna Convention to Brits living on the Continent (see my Jun 28, 2016 at 9:39 AM post on the EU thread). The Government needs to show some leadership (yes, a miracle is needed), and BBC need to inform the public (ditto)!
I have read Hannan's The Plan, which explains how Britain could be transformed, like QUANGO reduction etc, and while I don't agree with all its contents, it shows how change doesn't have to be an endless stream of dictatorial pronouncements and regulation changes, reminiscent of the EU :) , and likely to fail, again, like the EU.
Change can be smart!
Robert Christopher
Robert Christopher
Article 70b of the Vienna Convention does not cover medical care.
What would drive. many expats home would be the loss of an EHIC card.
Since it is an EEA provision and the Leavers are unwilling to accept the EEA free movement requirement, British citizens are unlikely to be eligible after 2018.
Entropic man
I like the SandyS golf club analogy.
All Brexit will achieve is that we pay green fees instead of a membership subscription. It will cost us just as much and we have to obey the same rules, but we no longer have any say in how the club is run.
Entropic man
Entropic Man
The EHIC Card and reciprocal health care are the main concern of all the British residents I have spoken to, that and having to get work permits for the minority I know who actually came here to make a living. Also of concern is whether or not once Britain has left will pensions be fixed at the rate on the point of leaving, although if, as promised the UK economy takes off stratospherically then that may be ameliorated by exchange rates.
SandyS
As a general question:
Neither the Tory nor Labour party had a post Brexit Plan in their 2015 election manifestos then they haven't got a mandate to negotiate anything. As we're all keen on democracy and the will of the people surely the only way forward is for there to be a general election and each party put forward their negotiating position. The winner(s) would shortly after trigger Article 50 and proceed from there. What happens if the Lib Dems stand on a no exit ticket and take the majority of English and Welsh seats on the back of the 48% who voted remain would make for even more interesting time.
This would give our friends/enemies in the EU a view of what is coming, this of course might not be advantageous to the UK but that's democracy.
SandyS
Two obvious things that need to be done.
1) Pass a Westminster act that accepts as the law of the land every piece of current EU legislation and regulation until such time as Parliament sees fit to change it.
2) Confirm the right of everyone currently living legally in the UK to continue living legally live in the UK in perpetuity.
We can start being independent from here on but we need to formalise the starting point.
M Courtney
Item 2 needs to be reciprocal.
rhoda
rhoda
Yes, but is it likely?
SandyS
There is an enormous amount of wishful thinking at BH.
Bottom line. This is a divorce and it will get very messy.
It is very clear that we will get no special favours. the first
All or nothing. To quote Angela Merkel today:-
"no cherrypicking."
Entropic man
The potential breakup of the UK is no joke.
The Hollyrood debate made that clear.
Note also.these two comments from the European Parliament today.
"Please, remember this: Scotland did not let you down. Please, I beg you, do not let Scotland down now": Scottish MEP Alyn Smith
"We in the North of Ireland are not bound by the UK vote... The last thing the people of Northern Ireland need is a new border with 27 member states": UK MEP Martina Anderson (Sinn Fein)
Politicians in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibralter are seriously considering their options.
Entropic man
Politicians in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Gibralter are seriously considering their options.
Good. If they are doing their job right, they should be doing that at all times.
What would drive. many expats home would be the loss of an EHIC card.
Since it is an EEA provision and the Leavers are unwilling to accept the EEA free movement requirement, British citizens are unlikely to be eligible after 2018.
Jun 28, 2016 at 10:30 AM | Unregistered CommenterEntropic man
EM - why would that "drive mane expats home"? A UK resident in France will normally have a French Carte Vitale, provided by the French social security system, and for which the French govt is reimbursed by the UK govt. Nothing to do with the EU or the EHIC card, so far as I know.
I imagine arrangements will be similar with other European countries. Likewise in the reverse direction with citizens of other European countries resident in the UK.
Martin A
Rhoda,
Item 2 needs to be reciprocal.
Yes. But we can't ensure that.
I would settle for unilaterally letting our neighbours be welcome in their current homes. It's nice.
And it would at least show grace in this messy divorce.
M Courtney
Martin A
I looked up the Carte Vitals.
It sounds marvellous.
Reimbursement of funds normally takes around 5 working days.Sometimes there may be a shortfall in reimbursements from the State insurance system due to “dépassements” – excess medical charges. You can check with your insurer to see if they will cover the costs but this isn’t always the case and patients sometimes have to carry the cost personally. This is happening more often as the French Government attempts to pass costs on.
Entropic man
EM - it's better than that.
You hand your carte vitale, and also the details of your 'mutuel' insurance, to the hospital reception desk or to the pharmacist. You don't hand over any money - it's all taken care of. The exception is when you visit the doctor. You then hand over 23€ and all of it, except for (I think) one euro, arrives back in your bank account shortly after. [ Or a nurse (eg for a blood test) in which case you hand over about 8€, which is also remibursed automatically.]
But in dental, optician and deaf-aid cases, the patient can expect to finish up paying hefty bills.
You are not obliged to have a mutuel insurance (which covers anything that the carte vitale does not cover). Most people do even though, in serious cases - eg hospital stays involving an operation, the carte vitale covers 100% of the costs.
I think that *all* residents of France get a carte vitale. If your own govt does not cover its cost (eg because you have not reached retiring age in your own country) then you pay a contribution (which is affordable) depending on your income.
Martin A
"no cherrypicking."
Jun 28, 2016 at 7:14 PM | Entropic man
No hypocrisy either?
Climate science has all been about scary stories, and despite nothing scary happening, more scary stories are still being told. Rational people have said the climate changes, and we have always adapted.
The Remain campaign has all been about scary stories. Rational people have argued that we can adapt and survive without the EU interfering with everything. The first step to success is to divorce ourselves from climate science.
Freedom to Cherrypick the best country for Sponging seems to be where the EU has upset most of Northern Europe.
golf charlie
Entropic man on Jun 28, 2016 at 10:30 AM
We are supposed to be looking for solutions, not problems on this thread!
The EHIC is not the European Union Health Insurance Card; it is the European Health Insurance Card.
The E111 European Health Insurance Card
Countries who are not full members of the EU are included in the scheme, so it is no means impossible for Britain to continue participating.
If the referendum had been conducted without Project Fear and the assumption that a Remain win was guaranteed, this information might have been available earlier.
And if we could get the NHS bureaucracy to realise that money doesn't grow on trees and that all ineligible NHS patients need to show their EHIC card, or pay up, the NHS would have more funding.
There was a very misinformed audience member on the Gove episode of Question Time. She was VERY angry that, if we Brexited, the Scientific research in British universities would collapse, as claimed by various letters sent to newspaper editors by academics. The fact that the Erasmus Programme, which is how much of European funding is channelled, includes countries outside the EU appears to have passed by this angry audience member and many others. It does not encourage confidence in the analytical skills, or is it a lack of political detachment, from so many in the academic world.
So, we might continue our funding through the Erasmus Programme, as before, or we might see that our money would be better spent giving it directly to the researchers, or something in between. A guarantee would only stop any intelligent realignment of resources, or the will of the public via government policy, in the future, yet guarantees for no change is the demand from many researchers.
Robert Christopher
Entropic man on Jun 28, 2016 at 7:14 PM
"There is an enormous amount of wishful thinking at BH"
You could say that the problem we have with the EU is that Ted Heath didn't engage in any wishful thinking when he concluded the original 'Common Market' agreement.
He gave away our fishing grounds (without even telling us), set up the CAP to please the French, and didn't even ask for English to become an official working language - it was the Irish that did that!
A major part of (successful :) ) renegotiation is each side getting a fair share of what they want. Britain has been cherry picked for 40 years and we have had enough!
For Merkel to say that there would be no backroom deals was amusing - bordering on Schadenfreude.
Do the Germans have a word for it themselves? :)
This is a divorce and it will get very messy.
It was Cameron's idea to have a referendum, to bar Brexiters from any resource to prepare their case, to frighten ministers into the Remain camp, to delay Brexit ministers from starting their preparation, to launch Project Fear, to trail around Europe antagonising every national leader he met ..... no wonder there is discord.
Brexiters could only do what they could did with the limited resources they had - and they won!
We now have to do what should have been done earlier, prepare to implement what was decided, so of course there will be a delay before things tick along.
Robert Christopher
SandyS on Jun 28, 2016 at 1:32 PM
the only way forward is for there to be a general election
Do you remember, we had an election only last year?
Do you remember, we now have fixed term parliaments, only cut short in exceptional circumstances, which now isn't one of them?
Do you remember, the Tories manifesto included the promise of an EU referendum? It was why so many Tory members stayed in the Party. It was why so many Tory voters voted Tory. The promise of a referendum was a USP.
Do you remember, the Tories, supported by Labour, passed the EU Referendum Act that passed the power of Parliament from Parliament to the people, so they could decide? That became the Law.
Do you remember, that (Remain) government produced pamphlet that dropped through our doors just before the referendum purdah? In it, it said, 'This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.'
Do you remember, the numerous referenda conducted in Europe that have been ignored?
Robert Christopher
I suggest we note here what the Government do to achieve a successful uncoupling from the EU.
1) Make a detailed list of all money coming FROM the EU that is used to pay farmers, areas, industries, research and the many other categories, so that on day one of the divorce we can replace the EU funding stream with a direct from the UK stream.
2) Produce Green paper outlining 'Points based System for immigration'/work permit system. This would need to be published and thrashed out in public so that a wide range of people (employers, partners, students, high value people) etc can be considered so that the balance is correct.
3) Start recruiting for the border patrol asap.
4) Produce a Green paper outlining a tariff scheme, so when another country hits us with an unfair tariff, we can retaliate within hours.