Discussion > President Trump
To claim 'civilized society' is to submit to asymmetrical warfare. A lofty ideal, one sometimes deadly.
Safe: Waterboarding is potentially completely safe, it needs regulated training.
Legal: It would be best to keep it lawful, else its usefulness will be lead to unauthorized illegal acts. These poorly policed events would be more likely to be unsafe, and less likely to produce actionable intelligence. Nonetheless, if waterboarding is not legalized and regulated, there will be episodes of its use, apparently by pirates.
Rare: It is an extreme measure; it should be used rarely.
This is an old argument for me, perhaps a dozen years ago I trod this weary, mine-filled ground.
Still got ideals, but like to look carefully where I step.
NB, some may notice a reference to a more lethal little act.
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kim
er, substitute 'rough men' for 'pirates' above.
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kim
Meanwhile, in oh-so-Progressive Canada...
Kevin O’Leary Conservatives could pose threat to Justin Trudeau Liberals in 2019
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"We’ve seen this trend elsewhere. The idea that it’s exclusively people from the right that are attracted to the populist message is incorrect,” Bricker said, pointing to former Toronto mayor Rob Ford, the successful Brexit referendum in the U.K. and America’s election of President Donald Trump as examples.
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R5 Interview MP: Torture might work 'sometimes'
Bob Stewart - the Conservative MP and former army officer - has told 5 live Daily that torture is "sometimes" justified.
"We don't like torture. No one likes torture. Not even Trump likes torture. But the fact of the matter is...sometimes it might work, and sometimes it might be justified."
He continued: "I don't agree with waterboarding, but a certain amount of persuasion might be justified if someone for example had the knowledge about where a nuclear weapon that was going to explode in London was. That is where I suggest that people might say a certain amount of persuasion could be justified.
He also said that, based on modern definitions, he himself was "technically.... a kind of torturer" in Northern Ireland in the 1970s.
stewgreen
stewgreen, that presupposes that you are 100% sure that it exists (weapons of mass destruction!), 100% sure you have the right man and that he 100% knows where it is. In such a hypothetical situation it seems that it is not really occurring in an 'informational-vacuum' and that there may be other avenues to explore.
Generally, a guilty man may well confess eventually but will tell you some other lies first, and subsequently. So how do you know when to stop torturing somebody? An innocent person will also start telling lies, having first pleaded innocence, just like a guilty person.
Moral high-grounds aside, if you are known to practice torture then you are assuredly condemning your own captured soldiers and civilians to the same or worse.
michael hart
Bah, again; there is hardly a person here who would not waterboard someone to save the lives of their near and dear. And this is the situation faced daily by 'rough men' at the front line. There is no need to hypothesize extreme holocaustic situations.
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kim
Trump is not currently supporting waterboarding.
Climate Scientists have a chance to get honest about their torturing of statistics, and generation of scare stories designed to frighten and intimidate the weak, vulnerable and gullible, for personal greed.
golf charlie
Trump knows that the press isn’t trusted very much, and that the less it’s trusted, the less it can hurt him. So he’s prodding reporters to do things that will make them less trusted, and they’re constantly taking the bait.They’re taking the bait because they think he’s dumb, and impulsive, and lacking self-control — but he’s the one causing them to act in ways that are dumb and impulsive, and demonstrate lack of self-control. As Richard Fernandez writes on Facebook, they think he’s dumb because they think he has lousy taste, but there are a lot of scarily competent guys out there in the world who like white and gold furniture. And, I should note, Trump has more media experience than probably 99% of the people covering him. (As Obama operative Ben Rhodes gloated with regard to selling a dishonest story on the Iran deal, the average reporter the Obama White House dealt with “is 27 years old, and their only reporting experience consists of being around political campaigns.” In Rhodes’ words, “they literally know nothing.”
QOTD at Samzdata blog
Average age 27 ? - that would explain quite a bit.- assuming a normal distribution :-p
Scott Adams the Dilbert cartoonist has more on the kitten + laser pointer tactics.
tomo
Tomo. The obvious danger to Trump is that if he is continuously distracting the media, then eventually the public will realize that he has been distracting them also.
Supertroll
Heh, St. ACK; hoi polloi is well aware of just what Trump is up to and it is laughing its heads and its asses off.
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kim
Supertroll
hmmm... I'm not sure that it's distraction as in wholesale misdirection.
What's really entertaining is that he knows where the media trigger buttons are - because the dolts continuously feed him clues :-) All the Donald has to do is choose which button. I think the media are - for the most part - so conceited that they willfully won't see this and adjust.
I have adopted the tactic lately of trivially following up on "anti-Trump" rhetoric on Twitter and my perception is that folk in the media are disproportionately represented and quoted - many times without them revealing their media credentials - Trump's people have I suspect spotted this and the incontinence is an enormously valuable resource for them. Certainly for me - it has been quite a surprise to discover quite how irrational and unhinged many of these participants actually are. There are a few that for some time were simply so batshit bonkers that I couldn't escape the feeling that they would blow their parody account cover eventually. I like parody accounts - but I get uncomfortable when I can't tell.....
I first saw the cat vs. laser pointer torment via Canadian Ezra Levant's Rebel Media videos - and it's still as far as I'm concerned a good working metaphor for what Trump is doing to the self absorbed activist left media.
tomo
There is at least one proper journalist in the UK
melaniephillips.com : THE MEDIA WAR AGAINST DONALD TRUMP
"In a subsequent interview (0810) with Republican Congressman Kevin Cramer, presenter Nick Robinson stated that people in Britain were aghast that President Trump supported torture, denied climate change and had lied about the size of the crowds at his inauguration.
Well, the certainty that there is simply no scientific argument to be had about anthropogenic global warming says far more about the BBC’s closed group-think mind than it does about President Trump."
ends
"But it’s very important that even those who oppose Donald Trump understand the brazen corruption of public discourse that is taking place in the media’s attempt to take down this President through character assassination, and the extreme danger of this attempt to subvert the democratic process and the will of the American people."
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The media have form on that : They deliberately took down Tony Abbott in Australia
stewgreen
Oh another sane journalist
Media is gripped by Trump Derangement Syndrome
By HARRY HURLEY Political Columnist Jan 24, 2017
stewgreen
HeeHee, I should have said 'laughing its many heads and multiplying assets off'.
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kim
Kim do you realize just how many precious brain cells I used up unnecessarily trying to fathom your meaning only then to read your heh heh-ing. You should be mightily ashamed of yourself.
Supertroll
Well, if it's any consolation, I often am. Giggle.
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kim
Kim, I don't think you're taking this at all seriously, Sigh!!!!!!!!
Supertroll
It does look like Germany’s elite establishment is having a very difficult time adjusting to Trump:
NoTricksZone: Germany’s Flagship Media/Top Pols Fanning Trump Hatred. Veiled Attempt To Trigger An Assassin?
It also looks like the 'BBC Problem' is even worse over there:
"What is disturbing is that this “parody” is not something produced by some fringe site, but by federal government supported German ZDF national television, and thus cannot be dismissed. It is “public television” and so all citizens are forced to pay mandatory annual fees. Non-payment involves severe penalties. Yes, as a resident in Germany, I also have to watch my money get used to pay for this hate-garbage aimed at my President."
There are also the comments to read.
Robert Christopher
Robert Christopher
Germany, led by Angele Merkel, has helped to trigger the wave of ant-EU unrest, spreading throughout the EU, a lot of it resulting from throwing borders open to economic migrants. If only 2% of the UK electorate voted for BREXIT as opposed to Remain, because of the BBC's Calais Jungle outside broadcast unit, the BBC should be given more credit for BREXIT.
With Trump now temporarily closing USA Borders, the EU may protest, but will also risk an increased backlash vote throughout the next 6 months, if it tries to increase the number of economic refugees flowing into the EU.
The German and EU leadership need to be very careful about what they protest about at the moment. More UK Remainers will start to realise that BREXIT was the right choice, as Jeremy Corbyn has, though not necessarily for the same reasons.
golf charlie
golf charlie on Jan 29, 2017 at 1:30 PM
"The German and EU leadership need to be very careful about what they protest about at the moment."
Protesting is usually for the powerless. :)
And the protesters wanting to ban Trump from the UK lowered the bar for reasons to ban those entering a country.
Robert Christopher
This is beginning to get worrying – the BBC are also (indirectly) encouraging murder, when the “saintly” Sir David Attenborough mooted shooting Trump as a viable option. How much hatred does the left harbour, and how soon before it is vented?
Radical Rodent
Radical Rodent,
the BBC and other left and centre left outfits seem to be chanting "Death to all Extremists!", without understanding how dangerous and hypocritical they have become.
I am not sure how far the BBC can push their luck without becoming a "banned organisation" for the purposes of entry to the USA.
If Trump decides to reopen Guantanamo Bay, the BBC could end up with the first journalists inside, though not necessarily with full reporting rights.
golf charlie
Now, according to Wikipedia,
"Sixteen countries forbid admission to Israeli passport holders:
Algeria
Bangladesh
Brunei
Iran[
Iraq
Kuwait
Lebanon
Libya
Malaysia
Oman
Pakistan
Saudi Arabia
Sudan
Syria[
United Arab Emirates
YemenIn addition, Iran, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan,Syria and Yemen do not allow entry to people with evidence of travel to Israel, or whose passports have either a used or an unused Israeli visa."
You're welcome, BBC. I understand that you've been busy with a lot of other things recently, otherwise you would doubtless have been at the front of the queue to remind us of these facts.
michael hart
A former CNN reporter
"CNN Is All About One Thing... And It's Not Journalism"
fwiw I think the "former CNN reporter" is wrong - it's about a raft of things that CNN have been doing in the last 10 years or so.
If the MSM does not re-factor itself to address the present situation - they are toast.