Discussion > Donald Trump thread
Alan kendall
That's very true, he'd have a job changing the constitution for sure. I have read that in certain quarters people think that Obama has circumvented the constitution by use of Executive Orders (i think that's the charge). So Trump may be able to blame soft left wing Supreme Court Judges put in place by his predecessors and try the Executive Order, if that's what it was, route. Depending on how well he has performed or is perceived to have performed his popularity may not suffer as much as it might.
The other thing is that if people he is "working" with think he's a one term President they may be more willing to bend with the wind. Don't the Chinese have a saying about grass and bamboo in a typhoon?
SandyS
I dread the possibility that Trump will get elected. Not for his political views, that's for the American public to judge upon, but because, although eminently electable, he has no political track record and displays little evidence of having any skill there.[...]
Jun 13, 2016 at 11:59 AM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall
A bit like Eisenhower, then?
michael hart
Michael Hart.
If you don't think the highest levels of the military are politicians you are deluded. In Eisenhower's case he spent years negotiating with political leaders of many different counties who didn't agree. In addition to this, immediately post war he benefited from immense prestige and good will. Hardly a Trump analogue.
Alan kendall
Trump is the only possible candidate who just might get Hilary Clinton elected - against any other possible candidate she would not have a chance.
Glebekinvara
Alan Kendal
"...... if Trump tried to prevent Moslems entry into the USA"
I believe Trump actually said he wanted to stop Muslim immigration into the USA " until we have figured out what is going on" -- ie as a temporary measure while eg visa conditions etc were reviewed. He has been deliberately misquoted on this by his political opponents in the USA and the Grauniadistas on this side of the water.
Spectator
AK, Eisenhower wasn't noted for his negotiating skills with the Wehrmacht.
Your chain is too easily Yanked.
michael hart
Raff.....if you have to tell people you are smart, you probably aren't.
if the boot fits....
Spectator
Alan kendall on Jun 14, 2016 at 09:49 AM
"I worry because the USA has never had a contender like him: no political experience or powerbase, dubious business record but a charismatic personality."
These are interesting times.
In the aftermath of the Orlando shootings, where the media have been at pains to 'prove' the killer was a loner, those in the US can look across to Europe and can see the future:
France cop-killer said he was answering Isil's call for lone wolf attacks during Ramadan
Then they think of their families and see this report and wonder how long it will be just restricted to Belgium, and Ramadan:
Brussels is facing a wave of terror attacks on schools and hospitals during Ramadan, say security services
Then they remember Obama not mentioning the 'I' word, and Hillary just about getting over the line, because it is getting close to an election:
Hillary Clinton Flip-Flops On Identifying Radical Islamic Terrorism
Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton asserts that she has no problem using the words “radical jihadism” or “radical Islamism” when describing the terrorist threat posed by ISIS, but in December she resisted the term.
Then, when someone offers an obvious suggestion, given the intel in the public domain, the Elite shut it down in a similar to the recent Angela Merkel-Mark Zuckerberg Agreement:
Game Developer Mark Kern Banned On Twitter For Saying Radical Mosques Should Be Surveilled
One mark of a statesman is to allow state security do their job. That disqualifies H. Clinton, and quite a few in Obama's administration, given that there appears to be so much indifference and little proactive effort in stopping these atrocities. Maybe, it is because when the security services find potential terrorists, there is little they can do apart from let them go. What ever the reason, tightening up on border security would look like an obvious choice, but it would go against everything the liberal left stand for.
In the mean time, Trump is beginning to look like a statesman, to US voters anyway:
Bang: Trump's Second Barrel Explodes at Jihad
Robert Christopher
Michael Hart.
Eisenhower wasn't asked to negotiate with with the Wehrmacht, but to defeat them, which he did.
Anyone who could keep Patton and Montgomery both focussed on the task must have had the negotiating skills of a Tallyrand.
Anything else to contribute?
Alan kendall
Trump is a clever guy, and used to getting his own way with charm and bluster, and also 'bullying' in some form or another.
I would imagine one of his motives for running is to prove he was right (rightly or wrongly) to many of his detractors, and rub their wrong noses in it (whether he or they were/are wrong)
He has made some correct statements, deemed too politically incorrect, by those who are incorrect naturally.
He is used to throwing his own money at a problem if the rewards justify it. Hopefully he will not relish throwing other people's money at problems just to even up old scores, whether they are national or personal.
One term of Trump should be sufficient
golf charlie
golf, he is quite used to throwing other people's money at things. See the article I linked to earlier, http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/nyregion/donald-trump-atlantic-city.html
He spent decades extracting money from other people for his own benefit and running the casinos into bankruptcy. Is that good business practice? I understood that he's also not spent much of his own money on the campaign so far, instead lending money to the campaign - perhaps to be repaid later from other people's donations.
He seems talented at getting other people's money for things that benefit him.
Raff
Anything else to contribute?Jun 14, 2016 at 2:41 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall
Yes, Alan.
Everything that you, Raff, EM, and the MSM in particular, can throw at him has already been thrown. True of false, that seems to have made more people vote for him.
You are still not getting it. Standard politics isn't working. Time to ask some different questions?
michael hart
Michael Hart.
What part of my previous posts don't you understand when I say my concern is not whether he is electable but whether he can act presidentially? Nothing you have contributed addresses this issue.
If you close your eyes and cover your ears, and just shout loud enough you might just be able to forget that there are others here who have legitimate concerns.
Alan kendall
Spectator. Read Trump's speech in December in South Carolina. He called for a "total and complete shutdown" of Muslims "entering the USA". Not immigrants, all Muslims. It doesn't matter if this were to be temporary, it would be unconstitutional.
Look at was has happened in Florida where the atrocity was committed by an American Muslim. Trump repeats his call for a ban on Muslims entering the USA. Pure political expediency. The guy has no shame.
Alan kendall
"...my concern is not whether he is electable but whether he can act presidentially? Nothing you have contributed addresses this issue."
Jun 14, 2016 at 6:21 PM | Unregistered CommenterAlan kendall
Well, let's imagine he had been president for the last 20 years.
On his stated opinions, he would have avoided things like pointless awful wars in the Middle East that cost a lot of American lives, far more Iraqi lives, made more enemies, and spent bazillions of Dollars on such enterprises.
And he would not have started sabotaging the living standards of Americans by trying to commit America to wasting godsquillions amount of Dollars trying to change the weather by altering the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.
Well, duhhh... In my book, that would be pretty damn good "Presidential" by recent standards.
michael hart
Alan kendall on Jun 14, 2016 at 6:51 PM
That was last December, and I remember reading that he prefaced the restriction with, 'until the Government knows what is happening', or words to that effect.
The guy wants the law abiding to stay alive!
Donald Trump has made another speech, on national security, since the terrorist attack in Orlando:
Breitbart - Horowitz:
Donald Trump’s Speech Is a Game Changer
The speech was specific, detailed, and on the money. Trump showed how strategic securing the border is, how important stopping immigration from terror zones like Syria is, and how deadly political correctness has become. Political correctness – which transforms the Islamic world, which has a lot to answer for, from aggressors into innocent victims – functions as a shield for Islamic terrorists, and handcuffs law-abiding citizens prompting them not to report suspicious activities by Muslims for fear of being called racist.
Trump was especially courageous (and politically incorrect) in pointing out that the Muslim communities in which the terrorists operate know what is going on but don’t say anything.
Robert Christopher
Michael Hart. You have no.proof that Trump if he had been president for 8 of the last 20 years (had you forgotten a president can only serve for two 4year terms?) would have done anything like what you suppose he might have done. All you have is his rhetoric now. You and other Trump supporters seem to forget that when Trump first suggested he might enter politics, no one knew which party he might join. There was some evidence that he might have been a Democrat, and this explains the deep suspicion he is held by within the Republican establishment. How do you know he wouldn't have been militarily even more aggressive?
There is a world of difference between what a candidate says they will do (or if they're honest, what they would like to do) and what is politically possible. I have given reasons for concern about the viability of a Trump presidency and you have come back with.....nothing?
Alan kendall
Raff at 4.15pm:
"He seems talented at getting other people's money for things that benefit him."
Sounds a bit like the climate change industry to me, so I'm surprised you're not in favour.
On a more serious note, I can see both sides in the Donald Trump debate on this thread. He scares the hell out of me, but I can see why a significant proportion of the US electorate are fed up of their political establishment, and he's feeding off that discontent very successfully. The establishment doesn't get it, which is rather their problem. It's a bit like the UK - whenever politicians are given a good kicking by the electorate, they have a terrible tendency to say "we need to work harder to get our message across"; the truth of course being that the electorate have received the message loud and clear, and rejected it. The political class are simply incapable of understanding that.
If Trump becomes POTUS I shall hope for the best while fearing for the worst.
Mark Hodgson
Robert Christopher. The perpetrator in Florida was an American, so how does this relate to Muslim entry into the USA? Everyone, including Trump, wants to jump on the terrorist wagon yet there are indications it may have been a self hate crime. Political expediency from the Trump team, thats what it is.
Alan kendall
Alan kendall on Jun 14, 2016 at 8:31 PM
His parents were immigrants, and it is common knowledge that second and third generations are prone to being more and more radical: they are brought up in two worlds that are very far apart.
Have you heard of radicalisation, where there is a flow of people between the West and the training facilities run by radicals, usually not in the West? Islam isn't a race, it is an ideology, so immigrants can pass on their 'skill sets' to those already in the country. It is happening in Europe, so it shouldn't be an alien concept to you.
In this case, the criminal may have been hating himself, but that doesn't mean he did it in isolation. He went on a religious pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia :) , and was very methodical, scouting Disney World with his wife, so there was some planning beforehand, even if he changed his mind. While it is easy to play the amateur psychologist, people are needlessly dying:
Breitbart Report:
Orlando Jihadi Scouted Disney World Before Deciding to Shoot Up Gay Nightclub
That is why Trump is popular. He is saying the obvious, things that should have been said long ago, and not only in the US. Many are aware of the dangers, and they want to protect their families and friends. It is what used to happen, when countries had proper borders:
Breitbart - Exclusive - Brian Mast:
Terrorists Planning Next Attack in America Now Among Us
Robert Christopher
michael hart,
"Everything that you, Raff, EM, and the MSM in particular, can throw at him has already been thrown. True of false, that seems to have made more people vote for him."
Many Republican members voted for him, but they may be immune from racism. After all, their party has been seething for 8 years that a black man could be made president and has done all it can to obstruct his presidency. Having an overt racist as a candidate is the next logical step. But persuading 13 million Republicans (choosing between him and some arguably worse choices for president) to vote for him is not the same as persuading the rest of the electorate that he is not toxic. I hope that is true at any rate.
Raff
Raff, Alan Kendall,
You are still not getting it. (But it is keeping the BH discussion threads alive).
You are trying to argue from the usual political standpoints as presented by the Main Stream Media. I don't much give a toss, but I am immensely enjoying the discomfiture of both sides of the political spectrum. He is upsetting the usual "political class", career criminals, who are actually more frightened of Trump than they are of each other.
(I approach from the mildly left-of-center, and have personally always thought of Trump is a preening self-aggrandising twat who appears to have a family of hamsters living on his scalp.)
Many of his supporters are people who are simply sick and tired of what the MSM tells them, and who the MSM tells them to vote for. People who never got included in the 'study groups' because they didn't previously take the trouble to vote.
By all means, carry on ranting about how Trump is xxx, yyy, or zzz. It's already been said, and the more you rant about him being as bad as Hitler, or something, the more likely you are to be recruiting for him. As I've said before, people said the same about Reagan in the UK press before he was elected. Jeez, why don't you get the Guardian to take out some local adverts in the US media again, like the last time they had a political hate-figure in a US election.
If you actually have something interesting to say about Trump, then ......I'd be surprised.
michael hart
Raff, you are throwing around accusations about Trump and Republicans.
What is it about Republican contempt for the financial devastation of climate science advocated policies, enforced by Democrats, that you and your sponsors don't like?
golf charlie
golf, it is clearly pointless to ask how "financial devastation" might come about. It is like support for Trump, immune from facts or logic. It is pure alarmism burned into your psyche by too much exposure to nutters both here and elsewhere.
Raff
SandyS. I, like everyone else, have no idea what Donald Trump will turn up in January if he wins the presidency. Much will also depend on the composition of Congress. I worry because the USA has never had a contender like him: no political experience or powerbase, dubious business record but a charismatic personality. Much harm could be done.
You are correct, if Trump tried to prevent Moslems entry into the USA, it eventually would be a matter for the Supreme Court. If they judged any proposed measures to be unconstitutional, Trump would be blocked. What do you think a Trump president would then do? The potential for complete political paralysis would be high. I don't think the political establishment would ever let it reach this point. Trump might be persuaded not to introduce such a measure and this would disappoint some of his followers, leading to a decline in his popularity. Unpopular presidents usually don't achieve much.