Ah, here comes the schoolboy name-calling. Only a matter of time.

It is not 'self-medication', for that you would need a medicine, by definition a substance that has demonstrable efficacy, and for that you need a proper trial. (How many times?).

The results from testing in the "trenches and tents" of NY hospitals has to be one of the most important bits of information scheduled to be released today - few actual medics are calling it before the results come in…

And precisely zero medics will be 'calling it' 5 days after the start of a trial. Only an ignoramus would make such a statement.

Ah, here comes the name-calling. Only a matter of time.

It is not 'self-medication', for that you would need a medicine, by definition a substance that has demonstrable efficacy. For that you need a proper trial. (How many times?).

The results from testing in the "trenches and tents" of NY hospitals has to be one of the most important bits of information scheduled to be released today - few actual medics are calling it before the results come in…

And precisely zero medics will be 'calling it' 5 days after the start of a trial. Only an ignoramus could make such a statement.

Mar 28, 2020 at 11:27 PM tomo

Phil Clarke is following St Hillary in celebrating the US rise in deaths. It is the best election strategy they have.to save Climate Science being wiped out, and was probably worked out by Hockey Teamsters with graphs of information upside down.

Anyone who believes the Chinese Communist Party is responsible for the ranking order shown here lacks a certain degree of credibility.

You really are a serial point-misser.

 if you bothered to look you'd find that its usage been explored against SARS 

And other complaints.

The WHO scientific panel designing SOLIDARITY had originally decided to leave the duo (chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine) out of the trial, but had a change of heart at a meeting in Geneva on 13 March, because the drugs “received significant attention” in many countries, according to the report of a WHO working group that looked into the drugs’ potential. The widespread interested prompted “the need to examine emerging evidence to inform a decision on its potential role.”

The available data are thin. The drugs work by decreasing the acidity in endosomes, compartments inside cells that they use to ingest outside material and that some viruses can coopt to enter a cell. But the main entryway for SARS-CoV-2 is a different one, using its so-called spike protein to attach to a receptor on the surface of human cells. Studies in cell culture have suggested chloroquines have some activity against SARS-CoV-2, but the doses needed are usually high—and could cause serious toxicities.

Encouraging cell study results with chloroquines against two other viral diseases, dengue and chikungunya, didn’t pan out in people in randomized clinical trials. And nonhuman primates infected with chikungunya did worse when given chloroquine. “Researchers have tried this drug on virus after virus, and it never works out in humans. The dose needed is just too high,” says Susanne Herold, an expert on pulmonary infections at the University of Giessen.

Got a Guardian or CNN piece to wave at us ?

Well, that was in Science magazine.

France has approved chloroquinine for coronavirus

Not exactly the whole truth there, is it tomo?

The high council recommends not to use this treatment... with the exception of grave cases, hospitalised, on the basis of a decision taken by doctors and under strict surveillance," (Health Minsiter) Veran told reporters.

https://www.thelocal.fr/20200324/france-allows-chloroquine-to-be-given-to-gravest-coronavirus-cases

If you think a temporary exemption equates to formal approval, well you're hardly in a good place to be calling others ignorant.

And with that, bye for now.

I think it's tragic that something so serious as coronavirus has become partisan between political parties, but I guess that's sadly inevitable in an election year in the US. Politically, I hove to the Democrats, and I think Trump is an irresponsible moron (though one who intuitively occasionally has the right of it, e.g. with regard to his mistrust of China, Iran and climate scientists). Regrettably, the Democrats have been making a pig's ear of things for years now. They would do well to reflect on how someone as palpably ridiculous as Trump managed to become POTUS ahead of the Democrat candidate.

The same comments could apply to the UK. I was a long-standing Labour Party member and activist. No more. I'm certainly not a Tory. But Labour and the LibDems have been making a pig's ear of it in the UK for years now. They need to reflect seriously on how palpably useless Tories keep managing to get elected and, more than that, break down the "red wall".

I fear that in both countries, however, the "left" will continue to be too busy virtue-signalling and following a politically correct agenda ever to understand the issues that motivate the poor people they are notionally supposed to represent. Until that changes, there is a real risk of Trump being re-elected and of the Tories being in power for many years to come.

Apologies for de-railing the thread. I felt the need to get that off my chest. Please return to discussing coronavirus, preferably without the politics.

And with that, bye for now.

Mar 29, 2020 at 2:29 AM Phil Clarke

Have you got to make up some more fake facts?

"French group claims malaria drug cures coronavirus"

https://cliscep.com/2020/03/28/french-group-claims-malaria-drug-cures-coronavirus/

"A new draft paper from a group of French researchers reports very encouraging results from the malaria drug Hydroxychloroquine, combined with Azithromycin, an antibiotic. 80 coronavirus-positive patients were treated, and all but two of them showed a rapid improvement over a few days."

https://www.mediterranee-infection.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/COVID-IHU-2-1.pdf

"Unfortunately, the team leader, Didier Raoult, seems to be something of a maverick and doesn’t do science the conventional way. You might expect a double-blind trial to be done, where neither the patients nor the researchers know who’s getting the treatment and who’s getting the placebo. Or at least you’d expect to have a control group. But here, there was no control whatsoever, so we don’t know whether the recovery of the patients was due to the treatment, or if they would have got better anyway. Only 10 of the 80 patients were in the high-risk over-70 age range.

Another paper by the same team was submitted on March 16, accepted on March 17 and published on March 20. By a remarkable coincidence, one of the authors of the paper also happens to be the editor of the International Journal of Microbial Agents that published it. This paper did have a control group but the number of patients was very small and numerous questions have been raised about the work on the pubpeer system, by Elisabeth Bik, Nick Brown and others. Despite the speed in getting the paper out, none of the 18 authors of that paper have attempted to address any of the questions that have been sitting at pubpeer for a week.

A particularly damning article about Raoult and his work has been posted by Leonid Schneider at his Forbetterscience blog. In addition to raising some of the pubpeer issues about the March 20 paper, Schneider reports that some of the many papers Raoult has written in the past appear to have photoshopped or duplicated images. Worse than that, it appears that Raoult may have committed the crime of being sceptical of the climate change scare.

Even more unfortunately, the issue has now been hopelessly politicised, since Donald Trump tweeted the March 20th paper. You can therefore with almost 100% accuracy predict someone’s opinion of the validity of Raoult’s work if you know their opinion of Donald Trump, or vice versa. So it’s no surprise that the Guardian is critical of the use of the drugs, trying to claim that it will mean other people who need them won’t get them."

I offer the above without comment.

"Ah, here comes the schoolboy name-calling. Only a matter of time.
Mar 29, 2020 at 12:18 AM Phil Clarke"

Ah, here comes the standard schoolboy hypocrisy, from the unapologetic liar.

I fear that in both countries, however, the "left" will continue to be too busy virtue-signalling and following a politically correct agenda ever to understand the issues that motivate the poor people they are notionally supposed to represent.
Mar 29, 2020 at 8:18 AM Mark Hodgson

In the US, no act of sabotage is considered too low for Democrats to descend to. Along with Climate Scientists (see The Guardian for details) there is a growing sense of panic.

In the UK, Corbyn's last few weeks may prove to be his finest as Labour Leader. He has not Opposed the best interests of the UK. If the UK had a General Election coming up before the end of 2020, things might be different. He has deliberately or unwittingly prepared the Labour Party to close the Socialist Distance Gap with reality.

It is a very common observation that someone losing an argument (especially when doing so badly) retorts to outright written abuse of the opponent. Good example of it in this so-called 'discussion'.

Then we have the somewhat weird occurrence of "Mann's Hockey Stick" (poor Bradley and Hughes get nary a mention) appearing in 'debates' on coronavirus having nothing to do with climate other than the involvement of Trump in both. As far as I can ascertain, Trump's every action (or inaction) is to be supported because he is pro-coal and anti- climate change alarmism and is in a position to do something about both. What I find difficult to understand is that if Trump were to have been replaced we would have a President Mike Pence who has an even stronger legislative record of being pro-coal and anti-climate change action. Go figure.

Mark. Pity I didn't read your post before sending mine. Yours was far more diplomatic and less confrontational, but I could no longer keep silent over the trashing of yet another discussion by the need of some to put Phil in his place. Personally I have always seen Phil as an asset, and have learned much from reading him. Some here oppose him out habit.

".. by the need of some to put Phil in his place."

Mar 29, 2020 at 10:12 AM AK

He is an asset. He publicises the dishonesty of his paymasters, and their selfish interests.

GC do you have any evidence whatsoever that Phil has received a sou from any paymasters?

Mar 29, 2020 at 11:52 AM AK
The circumstantial evidence is sufficient for me.

The Guardian and BBC do filter out the most stupid statements issued by Hockey Teamsters and the 97% Consensus manufacturers. "Phil Clarke" doesn't

Depending on the subject, the "style" of written English used by "Phil Clarke" changes and switches to the language used by insiders.

What evidence do Hockey Teamsters have, that the MWP and LIA did not exist? Is a bent Hockey Stick worth more or less than a single sou?

Mark,

There's a reasonable write-up of the various drugs and therapies undergoing trials by WHO here

I've taken a look at the first trial published in France, the one Trump tweeted, and I think its worthless. It was small sample, not randomised or blinded, some of the control group were never tested, and worse of all 6 subjects who dropped out were not included in the data. Of these 3 were hospitalised and 1 died, which would have made for a very different (non-tweetable) result had they been included.

A followup study did not include any subjects over the age of 70, whereas 87% of mortality is in that group.

A Chinese study (Zhejiang University) found no benefit from hydroxychloroquine versus the usual treatments, but again the sample size means the results failed significance tests.

Hydroxychloroquine is effective against Lupus and Rheumatoid Arthritis. Demand sparked 3,000% this month due to increased interest in the drug, presumably fuelled in part by an enthusiastic, if evidence-free, endorsement by the President of the United States and his false claim that it had been approved for use against COVID-19. There are reports, and posts on social media, from medical professionals and people with these conditions being unable to get their scripts filled. The US Lupus Foundation is sufficiently concerned to issue this statement:

Unfortunately, there are already verified reports across the country of pharmacies having major shortages of these vital drugs. The Foundation applauds the commitment of pharmaceutical companies that have pledged to increase production and supply of these medications. We call on all manufacturers of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to do the same.  However, increased production must not solely be done for the purpose of responding to COVID-19, but also to meet the existing needs of people with lupus. The efficacy and safety of these drugs for lupus are established, and the drugs routinely are prescribed for lupus. While we support investigating their use for COVID-19, it is important that the nation not forget the people who already rely on these medications in their daily lives.

'Dr' Trump should STFU.

Dr' Trump should STFU.

Mar 29, 2020 at 1:06 PM Phil Clarke

That was a fully funded Partisan Political Rant on behalf of the Hockey Teamster/Democrat Alliance