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Discussion > EVs - Charging / Solar Panels

On the grid capacity, the story changes by the day. One minute we have the retiring head of NG telling us to get ready for power being supplied only when available. Then we're told there's no problem. Now they say charging should be off-peak.

Imo, EV charging is probably not going to be a big issue, at least not for many years. It's already normal for users to charge overnight - those who can.
The fun will really start if/when we get a large-scale move to electric heating, etc. That will be a far bigger load and it's not so easy to flex.

Jul 31, 2021 at 9:33 AM | Unregistered CommenterMikeHig

MikeHig

The intermittency of renewables surfs on the back of the fossil fleet, there are times when the wind isn't blowing. The free ride that renewables have been stealing depends on there being enough "legacy" capacity to cover the periods when there's a shortfall.

You've seen the zombie coal plants in action this summer?

Grid scale batteries simply don't cut it

From earlier in this thread - see the power requirements for commercial transport = there is a crunch coming. If Elon Musk's truck EV were viable do you think he might already be using them to move bits of his rockets around in Texas?

I tend to use The John Lewis partnership (Waitrose) as a bellweather for electric / "eco-friendly" transport and they are implementing a gas powered fleet and even their short range "shunter" fleet (surely a candidate for electrification) at their Bracknell HQ is diesel.... Don't start me on the purported biogas malarkey that they propose for actual deliveries.

Locally the DPD delivery company deployed electric small vans (Citroen Dispatch I think) just after the turn of 2021. - those have now disappeared and diesel Sprinters / Crafters are now exclusively used. I wonder if the working radius has been reduced for the electrics or if they've simply been withdrawn ...? I can't help thinking that these commercial trials of EVs are important to the rest of us - as I think I've said before here British Gas have had a failed deployment of EVs in London which must have blown a minimum seven hole in their finances....

Jul 31, 2021 at 10:37 AM | Registered Commentertomo

The Car Wizard goes electric....


HERE on YouTube.

2013 Nissan Leaf 63,000 miles and 6 bars out of 11 on the battery capacity (i.e. half worn out) - so about 50 miles range. Looks to have been well looked after . he's going on an adventure to re-battery it .... will be following with interest.

That capacity attenuation is something that simply isn't in the UK public space with respect to EVs (anecdotally it seems that it might be a Nissan specific quirk...) - but three things come to mind ...

How would that capacity wear look if grid<>car was enabled?

How aggressively are Tesla managing/massaging their batteries remotely?

What are the capacity wear figures looking for other EVs?

Aug 12, 2021 at 12:37 PM | Registered Commentertomo

tomo; there is indeed much info/feedback which is not in the public domain.

A few which come to mind:
> Manufacturers recommend charging between 20 and 80 % for the health of the battery. That makes a nonsense of the range claims.
> Charging is complicated. Lots of cars manage the rate of charge, again for battery health, so the headline rate only applies in the car's "sweet spot". One example I have read is that charging a Tesla from 80 - 100% takes the same time as charging from 20 - 80%.
> Putting in a domestic charger is rarely straightforward, nor cheap. Depending on the local wiring (eg "looped supply" which I don't understand), modifications can be necessary. Authorisation is required from the local DNO which can be very slow.
> Rapid charging is tough on the battery so is not recommended on a regular basis. Folk looking at 2nd hand EVs are advised to get a widget which lets them check the car's charging history.

As for those points you mention...
Vehicle to grid would increase the cycle rate on the battery which is one of the factors in deterioration but I have no idea if it could be significant.
I've read of Tesla taking strong action to protect the batteries of certain models by reducing both the rate at which they will charge and the useable.capacity. The received wisdom is that they did this to prolong the battery life so that they would not have to replace them under warranty.
I haven't read much about other marques, except for the point you picked up about the early model Leaf.

Imho there's going to be much more of this reality checking as the number of EVs increases fast and the fleet ages.

Aug 12, 2021 at 10:49 PM | Unregistered CommenterMikeHig

MikeHig

much of the information around EVs is deeply skewed - we know they aren't an all-pervading solution to transport , but the fanboys persist in pushing the idea of electric everything.

Batteries need to be carefully managed and are nowhere near the magic fuel tank that is generally presented. Technology should be able to do that management - but people will take shortcuts and think they can skimp on maintenance - even the big manufacturers ... a consequence of the bragging over IC oil change intervals (without installing centrifugal separators and larger filters) is that many more vehicle engines are failing due to oil sludging - but that catches the 2nd and 3rd owners so the manufacturers don't give a stuff. Car talk is mostly about now models ....

Aug 13, 2021 at 3:03 PM | Registered Commentertomo

That Greg's Airplanes YouTube is out - he swerves discussion of the book!

Aug 13, 2021 at 3:05 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Thanks tomo - I'll look out for that.

Meanwhile, in the EV world, it hasn't taken long for folk to work out how to gain a bit of bunce from an EV (if it has vehicle-to-load capability):
"I was looking at something along these lines here in Scotland where most of the public EV charging is free. Charge the car up while at work then bring it home and drop 80% of the charge into the domestic supply.
It doesn't really make financial sense for me at the moment as I don't need a new car yet, but it might do in some circumstances."

Aug 17, 2021 at 4:22 PM | Unregistered CommenterMikeHig

The second hand Lithium battery market is on fire....

Bonkers prices being paid for what is essentially in many cases landfill....

I subscribe to a wide variety of YouTube channels and I was taken aback at the price of electricity in San Diego - from 4 to 9 pm it's 56 cents per kWh. ( Ricky at "2 bit DaVinci" ). He's also got a video on EV towing which I have in my "to watch list" - Ricky is a fanboy - but a bit more grounded than most.

Aug 18, 2021 at 10:58 AM | Registered Commentertomo

Article from Autocar about the CMA's intervention in the charger market:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/electric-cars/why-electric-charger-providers-are-under-scrutiny

When you read the list of problems they want addressed it rather confirms that the present situation is a right old buggers' muddle.
Getting it sorted would also make the EV market more competitive because the present electrishambles means that anyone who needs to do a significant mileage has no option but to buy a Tesla.

Aug 20, 2021 at 10:27 AM | Unregistered CommenterMikeHig

So I watched that Greg's Planes YT on German fuel ( I confess to skipping a bit for reasons below).
I thought it was very poor. He droned on far too long about his ECR ratios but took little or no account of other detonation factors such as valve configuration, aromatics content, lead additives, etc..
He did make some passing mentions of Calum Douglas' work but showed that he hadn't read it in any depth by discounting metallurgical issues with the comment that they only became an issue after Operation Torch in 1942 cut off supplies of cadmium. Thus he completely missed that cadmium was only used in an effort to remedy the problems caused by the shortage of nickel, supplies of which were disrupted by the Russian-Finnish war and then lost entirely with the start of Barbarossa.
As I watched I remembered seeing a previous effort of his on the P-47. In that, as here, he had his ideas and spent a lot of time finding evidence to fit them.
I'll be avoiding his stuff in future!

Aug 22, 2021 at 9:05 PM | Unregistered CommenterMikeHig

Back on topic: GM is recalling all Chevy Bolts because of the risk of battery fires:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gm-recalls-chevy-bolts-fire-risk/

Going to cost $1.8 bn apparently.

How long is it going to be before the insurance industry starts to look at EVs in garages, domestic batteries, etc?

Aug 22, 2021 at 9:12 PM | Unregistered CommenterMikeHig

MikeHig

Greg droning ? - I agree with your summary. I find myself skipping around his content. I appreciate his collection of original data though - the flight manuals, test data and comparisons are worth a bit of time. I find it quite absorbing to see the trajectory of aircraft development through the eyes of people at the time - rather than from the present day when usually 20:20 hindsight applies :-) He can be remarkably / selectively partisan though ... and if they gave out medals for droning :-)

That Chevy EV recall seems short on detail. I'm wondering about the Hyundai situation as partially elaborated iirc by a Spectator writer who lives in France - it rather looks like a systemic problem with the BMS and controls and technical reticence is the order of the day. I thought that blocking customers on Twitter wasn't the cleverest thing to do especially when they'd apparently suffered months of issues.....

elsewhere

I suspect that some larger organisations are having a bit of EV retail remorse - I'm seeing 2019 electric Berlingo vans "lurking" around main dealers around London with ca. 250 miles on them for ca. £16k - which looks about half price. The ads are quite coy with no photos ....

Aug 25, 2021 at 10:24 AM | Registered Commentertomo

The GM Bolt batteries are made by LG, their stock price for the whole company lost 11% on the day of GM's announcement. LG also make batteries for Tesla and VW and others, so if the fault is common expect more recalls.

Aug 25, 2021 at 1:16 PM | Unregistered CommenterMuppets are us

eBay 2019 Peugeot EV van 263 miles £17.5k

Aug 25, 2021 at 5:35 PM | Unregistered Commenter.

Another Peugeot van 284 miles £16k+VAT

Aug 25, 2021 at 5:41 PM | Unregistered Commenter.

A few interesting posts from an EV forum on the subject of voltage spikes and dips:

"Just checked input voltage at the office; surprised how much it fluctuates. I assume this is normal?"

"The grid has to handle huge changes in demand through the day, and most of the voltage control is done by changing the turns ratios on generator output transformers (known as Taps)
Is used to be simple.
In the morning, Tap down as industry with its large (inductive) loads come onto the bars, in the evening Tap up as things shutdown. At work, we get instructions to achieve target MVars (because, inductive loads do strange things to voltage and current wink ) and then change the Tap settings to achieve that (rather than adjusting the generator output voltage). We change in steps of about 50MVar at a time which means the adjustments are somewhat 'lumpy'
These days with wind and solar farms output changing, the grid has had to adapt so there are more voltage control devices embedded into the grid itself but the premise is still the same."

" I have my IT stuff at home on a UPS and soon after getting it had to increase the over-voltage trigger from 255 to 260 as it was going off all the time.
Normally we, largeish semi-rural village, sit at 248V. Going to bed one night the UPS was beeping away and voltage was 273V - checked with multimeter and got same. Didn’t seem any other effect. Rang the DNO thinking they could turn it down a bit but they were anxious to send someone out - put them off as didn’t fancy staying up. Was surprised it was still same in morning then at 9AM it suddenly dropped."

"We had similar with a home UPS a few years back. Returned one UPS as it wouldn't run at all - when the replacement also didn't work I stuck a meter in the socket and saw ~260V. Called electricity suppliers who were skeptical but sent out a logging device - within 24 hours of returning it there were guys tweaking taps on the poles nearby!"

"How does that work?
Clearly the shaft rpm has to be constant in order to maintain 50 Hz.
But somewhere in the system a lot more physical grunt must be put into the generator if you want to get more power out of the transformer, whatever the voltage. And the current will change significantly when the voltage is moved."

"Its like a big jelly. But you have two questions there really.
Power - yes, the grid need to match power in to power out to keep the sets rotating to give 50hz, but that frequency is also all over the place, if we loose a generator you often see the grid frequency fall significantly. Grid control balance load and keep it as close to 50hz as possible and they used to ensure the average over a day was 50hz as synchronous clocks relied on that (they probably still do).
Voltage - Because AC in an reactive system (capacitive and inductive) means the voltage and currents are out of sync with each other most of the time, we dont really talk about voltage, but about Var (Voltamp reactive) which is the line on a vector between the current and voltage. Grid control give us an instruction to move the generator transformer tap position to achieve a target MVar (Million Voltamps reactive). It moves about 50 MVar per tap when we are generating anywhere between 180MVar to ~300MVar. The generators output voltage is fixed by an automatic voltage regulator, so changing the turns ratio on the gen transformer, forces the voltage we are putting into the grid to increase or reduce.
Practically, it means we push up the voltage at the gen transformer terminals or reduce it, to achieve the voltage on the lines that grid need to achieve the voltage at the points of delivery down the lines. The power being generated remains the same, but yes the current changes a bit, but that doesn't matter much as long as the voltage is right where its sent to because of course what the problem is, the lines are long and the voltage drops across the lines depends on the location and size of the demand. If Scotland is generating lots, and the demand is in the south, the voltage on the lines in Scotland can be pushed up to push the power down south (over simplification). We are stuck in the middle and have to respond to changes up and down the country.
Now, of course we are all pushing into a system (as I said, a big jelly), so if we increase our voltage and thus our MVar, another station will reduce depending where it is so we dont look at voltage, we look at MVar and all take our fair share of producing this 'apparent power' to achieve the grid condition.
AC transmission is fun. When you put it into a reactive load (either capacitive or inductive), the voltage and the current go out of phase with each other. There are lots of factors (pun intended), to much to discuss here (and my head hurts).
During the day, its mainly inductive loads, so we tend to tap into lag so that the current lags the voltage, at night it tends to become capacitive (mainly the overhead lines) and current leads the voltage.
Probably a bit confused and unclear but to go into in detail would mean going into AC theory which I did many many years ago and as I said, my head hurts"

"In an earlier comment you said: "These days with wind and solar farms output changing, the grid has had to adapt so there are more voltage control devices embedded into the grid itself but the premise is still the same."
Does this mean that the grid voltage is more variable than used to be the case? If so, what are the implications: can we expect more out-of-range spikes, for example?"

"Need a grid person to say how it is, but in the old days, tap changing was so predictable.
Raise MVar in the morning as the loads increase, lower in the evening as the factories shutdown.
Then, in the 2010's, tapping was happening at random times throughout, now its settled back down a bit. I know grid have installed some voltage control into the grid.
And while the voltage can go up and down, it should always remain within the stated bands. Remember the national grid is only part of the transmission and the local subs and transformers play their part."

"The DNO I work for have started putting in automated tap controllers at an LV level. Looking at the way things are going there'll be much more going in to control the LV side of things in the future too.
Would certainly solve the original poster's problem!"

Apologies for the huge post but I thought there were some interesting comments, esp the feedback from people working in the industry.
My take on all of the above is that taking increasing renewable output onto the grid has introduced a lot more voltage variability and control challenges.
Also there is investment going into the local grid to deal with these consequences - another extra cost that falls onto the consumer. If this affects much of the "downstream" distribution system, local substations, etc, I guess it could add up to a chunk of money.
One more point to check for anyone considering an EV - the voltage variations on the home supply. If they are excessive they will trip the charger so the EV will not be charged overnight: awkward.....

Sep 1, 2021 at 12:55 PM | Unregistered CommenterMikeHig

MikeHig

It would be good if some actual power engineers "came out" !!!

I've seen a procession of execrable dunces from Head Office communications departments opining on how it's all wonderful, nothing to worry about - I think I mentioned the clown from National Grid up thread who very obviously didn't know the difference between Amps and Watts but was nonetheless presuming to be an electrical power expert!

In the last 10 years I've been involved in some electrical power projects and I've had my illusions shattered about the integrity of electrical power distribution system and been surprised at the ramshackle nature of many power installations - in particular the phase distribution arrangements "out of town" and the seemingly lackadaisical attitude to electrical power in London (you should see the ghastly wiring under Trafalgar Square!!) .

Voltage transients are generally what really damages kills equipment - but Ohm's law being what it is means that low volts can cause an over-current situation when the attached equipment tries to pull its normal power - hopefully just taking out the fuse....

Near every Greenie / renewable fan I've come across ... I definitely wouldn't trust to wire a plug - but they've vehement opinions on electricity ... I can't be bothered to be kind these days and have been known to get very potty mouthed indeed.

I see ill conceived and badly executed electrical installations on a regular basis - that hasn't improved since I started doing industrial electrics some 30 odd years ago - a new housing estate with all EV owners looks like a perfect storm from here :-) - or a diesel generator sales opportunity :-)

Sep 2, 2021 at 10:13 AM | Registered Commentertomo

DHL to operate electric aircraft in California

- good luck with that I say ....

They haven't got one that works (or is even prototyped) yet and it'll deffo need swappable batteries... assuming California has enough electricity to charge them.

Sep 2, 2021 at 10:41 AM | Registered Commentertomo

More on the joys of trying to get a charger installed for an EV:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=247&t=1949820&i=0

As numbers are still relatively low, I doubt things are going to improve.

Sep 7, 2021 at 3:21 PM | Unregistered CommenterMikeHig

Spotted this very short video from two years ago

Electric cables were failing with associated pyrotechnic effects around twice a month in London

They aren't exploding as the boy claims - It's feeder cables - generally joints / splices failing and arcing to the tune of 200kW + causing steam, burned insulation, a considerable quantity of sparks and reasonably high pressures... they are like mini volcanoes

I doubt the frequency of failures has reduced - the reporting though.... that's almost entirely disappeared.... Not difficult to imagine that the system is creaking....

Sep 8, 2021 at 2:27 AM | Registered Commentertomo

That PistonHeads tale of woe reverberates around here - as an aside I wonder what the statistics are for catastrophic failures while charging - and if present EV car insurance covers thunderstorms....

Sep 8, 2021 at 1:03 PM | Registered Commentertomo
Sep 9, 2021 at 9:14 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Those cars are from Paris' Autolib scheme which was supposed to be a 4-wheeled version of Boris bikes.
According to web reports, the scheme went bust in 2018 so the cars were taken off the road.
The comments about their batteries etc seem to be speculation/fake news.
The question is why haven't they been resold or scrapped?
My guess would be that's to do with the bankruptcy process.

Sep 10, 2021 at 9:03 AM | Unregistered CommenterMikeHig

There's a wikipedia page ...

They were items that some people seemed to like crashing (judging by the photos of battered items) + setting fire to... possibly out of frustration at faults...

The Bolloré Bluecar seemed to tick a fair number of EV boxes.

The batteries though are *very specific* to the vehicle - I wonder if there's a chemical reason that the units are still in the field - it rather looks like re-batterying them with a Chinese eBay pack isn't going to be optimal....

Bolloré are as far as I can trivially tell - the only maker of those solid sate batteries.

Sep 10, 2021 at 12:32 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Some more context - the company was losing 50 million Euros a year (€20,000 a year loss per car on a fleet of 2500 !!)


https://www.francetvinfo.fr/economie/transports/autolib/reportage-que-vont-devenir-les-encombrantes-autolib-entassees-dans-le-cimetiere-de-romorantin_4328845.html

Looks like French reporters are somewhat more diligent than their Anglophone colleagues...

Sep 10, 2021 at 1:11 PM | Registered Commentertomo