Sep 8, 2020 at 9:13 AM MikeHig

(continuing on the thread theme of random bits of information, that may be useful for reference purposes)

Firefighters have also encountered "problems" with roof mounted solar panels causing fires. Again, I don't know that it is the panels themselves, more likely the electonic wizardry.

They are NOT easily Turn-off and On-able, with a big red switch on the outside of a building that they can put an axe through, if a key is not available. This is more complex if the panels are capable of feeding into the National Grid.

Pdf files in the Link:
"This 3-year study by the BRE (Building Research Establishment) explored fires involving solar photovoltaic (PV) systems."

"The study includes:

a review of historical incidents
relevant literature
standards
training
The incidence of such fires is very low, but the study makes a number of recommendations to reduce risks. These include improvements to installation practices and to the way the fire and rescue services deal with such fires."
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fire-incidents-involving-solar-panels

"The vaunted cause was dodgy wiring"
Sep 8, 2020 at 3:00 PM tomo

Determining that a fire was started by an electrical "fault" is relatively simple in the majority of cases, if the seat of the fire can be traced to sockets, overloaded circuits, particular appliances etc, combined with eye witness accounts, the absence of other causes and specific forensics, if required. It is a simple report for Fire Officers to write.

Unless there are suspicious circumstances, fatalities, issues around Legal Liability etc, the majority of domestic fires will not be the subject of an independent Forensic Investigation and Report, and the Fire and Rescue Services do not have unlimited budgets for Investigative Man Hours, or the preparation of Reports for Legal purposes.

The reason for mentioning this is that "dodgy wiring" can include defects within materials as supplied, defects that arise in use, defects in installation wiring workmanship or defects in the original domestic wiring. With meters measuring Feed In Tariffs and Mains Supplies, it is likely that more than one electrician and company will be involved.

Mice, squirrels and other flying rats and vermin also find electrics and installations good homes and sources of food. Many get barbecued to a crisp in fires and their involvement is missed.

I do not doubt that dodgy installers and dodgy solar panels cause fires!

Some interesting comments here; thanks tomo for setting up this thread.

Those links were interesting. The first one about dangerous gas emissions from battery fires ties in with something I read about a proposal for a massive solar farm with back-up storage - in Kent iirc. A local protester mentioned this issue and the report you linked gives weight to that concern. I very much doubt that any EV users are aware of this - or of the type of extinguisher they should consider. Thanks for the info.

Wrt running generators on glycerine, this has been a known option within the biodiesel industry for 15+ years. The big, turbocharged 2-stroke diesels made by the likes of Wartsila can be adapted to this fuel quite easily. I seem to recall that viscosity at low temps could be an issue.
The Aquafuel blurb is highly disingenuous. While they admit that glycerine is a by-product of biodiesel production and "may" have environmental implications, they fail to recognise the scale of the problems arising from biofuels. In the US approx one third of the corn crop (maize to us) goes for biofuel: turning food into fuel while there are thousands starving around the world is just plain wrong. The huge expansion in palm oil plantations in the far East is also mainly driven by biofuels.
OK...rant over!

On solar panels, it's my understanding that virtually all domestic installations are connected to the grid to get the subsidised feed-in tariffs. Also their controls will shut them off if there's a power outage - unless the owner puts in some fancy extra controls and storage.

"... they fail to recognise the scale of the problems arising from biofuels. In the US approx one third of the corn crop (maize to us) goes for biofuel: turning food into fuel while there are thousands starving around the world is just plain wrong."
Sep 8, 2020 at 8:03 PM MikeHig

Try googling:

Guardian biofuels 2007

then 2008, 2009 etc

I am happy to criticise The Guardian when it is wrong, but they had Biofuels right.
Unfortunately, they still went on to blame Syria's descent into Civil War on food shortages caused by Global Warming.

Australians have heard of Battery Cars and why Brits don't want them

http://joannenova.com.au/2020/09/a-quarter-of-the-uk-wont-even-buy-an-electric-car-in-their-lifetimes/
"96% say they are not even thinking of buying one at the moment
Hardly anyone wants to buy an Electric Car in the UK
Peter Campbell Financial Times

The number of people in the UK planning to purchase an electric vehicle has collapsed as the pandemic squeezed finances for potential car buyers, according to a leading online automotive portal. A survey by Auto Trader of 2,300 consumers in January found 16 per cent were planning to buy a battery-only car. But in an August survey of 2,700 people, just 4 per cent were considering a pure electric car.

The two big reasons cited are the lack of charging points and the cost — even though the government effectively does a £3,000 cashback deal to help sell them.

Government subsidies for electric cars were cut in March from £3,500 to £3,000, although the benefit does not apply for used vehicles.

In tight pandemic times, EV’s are so unpopular people don’t even want a second hand EV. The average selling prices for second hand EV’s fell 5% in August."

wrt to EV sales the report only addresses outright purchase.
If there's going to be a growing take-up I expect it will be driven mainly by the company car market. The financial benefits of swapping from the stereotypical Audi/BMW/Mercedes into a Tesla Model 3 are overwhelming at k£4 - 5 per year tax saving, before any other advantages.

Interesting....I just tooka look at the figures for car sales. Pure EVs are up nearly 160% YTD in a market that is 40% down.
That said, 160% of a pretty small number is still a pretty small number but it does suggest there's appetite in the market.

Here's what happens when your EV decides to barbecue the groceries before you can get then home!
http://joannenova.com.au/2020/09/climate-change-causes-car-fires/

Sep 8, 2020 at 11:38 PM MikeHig
The "Company Car" market has been hammered for those that had a company car as a pure perk, rather than as a necessity to do the job they were employed to do.

Sales of new cars have been maintained because of low interest rates combined with employers and car dealerships offering good value deals on loans for cars and fixed price/fixed term hire purchase schemes that include maintenance.

This has encouraged people to "buy" new cars, but smaller ones, concentrating on what they need as opposed to what their employer will pay for. Companies with high mileage drivers, and drivers doing high mileage both saw the clear benefits of diesels, because that is how the market was deliberately rigged.

Smaller cars have smaller engines, lower consumption and smaller fuel tanks. A modest Fiesta would have a range of about 200 miles per tank, whereas a Sierra/Mondeo would have everything bigger and a range of 300. When I was doing 40-50,000 miles a year, the idea of a diesel doing 700 miles per tankful would have been a bonus to me and my employer, not having to stop and refill every other day.

BMW (for example) have maintained their sales by producing smaller cars with smaller engines, so private buyers can keep the badge but without having to pay too much themselves.

If you are medium to high mileage, a battery car won't work. Hybrids did, but only when using batteries for those important miles when arriving at home, or destination, or driving in town centres.

Despite claims made, few battery cars have a comfortable range of more than 100 miles. They are much more economical in towns, stop/start, low speeds etc. than petrol/diesel equivalents, but the issue of RANGE per fill is still the over-riding factor for those who spend time in their car without covering huge mileage.

Without wishing to type cast (!) the mum who takes children to school, round trip plus shopping in the morning of 10 miles, then repeats in the afternoon, will struggle to complete a week without charging, before any other recreational or private mileage for family benefit. Similarly, the Community Nurse or Midwife covering a small geographical area but multiple trips per day of a few miles each will also struggle to complete a working week without charging. All this assumes headlights, heaters, heated screens, windscreen wipers are not switched on.

If companies and authorities etc are encouraged to provide battery cars for employee use, as pool cars, employees still have to get to work. If employers are encouraged to provide "essential keyworker" but low mileage drivers with company cars, the assessment of the tax benefits will have to be reconfigured.

Not many people want to buy a secondhand battery car with 40k+ miles on the clock and more than 3 years old because of the battery extinction date.

Subsidies to help a market that people want to exist, can be beneficial, but subsidies and punitive taxes to force people into purchasing inferior products with their own earned income are not good for politicians

tomo, from your Link
https://www.idtechex.com/en/research-article/electric-vehicles-go-high-voltage/17347
"They have to be charged of course but Ricardo works with Fisker on a proprietary 800V charger, 800V battery pack and e-axle powertrain. *Wild card is a solid state battery to be launched at an undefined date* that will be more suitable for high voltages and fastest charging without fire risk. *Meanwhile, a range of 200 km is promised within 9 minutes of charging. * "

"Dräxlmaier is starting series production of the 800V battery system for the Porsche Taycan. Porsche has even begun installing 800V electric charging stations at dealerships evidence of Volkswagen Group applying formidable talent and money to leapfrog Tesla. *Back in 2016, Porsche developed an 800V charging system (as well as wireless charging) for the Mission E concept.* If this system goes into production, VW is likely to use it in other EVs. Also in VW Group, Audi's 570 kW power comes with its own 800V charging system."

A range of 200 km within 9 minutes of charging is what customers want. Motorists also wanted cars capable of 100mpg, but they never appeared despite helpful hints and marketing from industry experts.

They are already getting close to 200 km in 9 mins of charging.
I read a blog by a Taycan owner on a huge road tour of the US and Canada. His best charging rate was 225 kW which was sustained for about 12 mins. Conditions were ideal: the car identified the charger while en route and "pre-conditioned" the battery. Even so, that's impressive compared to where things were only a few year ago.
The Taycan is not especially efficient (although owners report it is better than expected) getting about 3 miles per kWh. So, at it's top whack, it could recharge at about 12 miles per minute => 108 miles in 9 mins => 172 km.
Of course that is still a long way from reality for the more typical EVs but, imho, it won't take long. Lurking in the background are the consequences of such high rates in terms of battery degradation and the likelihood of dimming the lights of the whole neighbourhood!

GC: your long post of 10:05 yesterday raises a lot of points, some of which I think are a little off-base.
The big change in the market is not a shift to smaller cars, it is the huge surge in popularity of SUVs which are both bigger and heavier than their saloon or hatchback equivalents. Also cars have generally grown bigger and heavier over the years - today's VW Polo is bigger and a lot heavier than early Golfs.
BMW is a prime example. Their smallest car, the 1 series, is at least Golf-sized and uses engines which start at 1.5 litres, running up to 3 litres. Furthermore most engines are now turbo/supercharged and often electrically boosted so they have the output of NA engines of twice the capacity or more.
While older EVs were severely limited on range, most recent models will achieve much more than 100 miles, usually 200+, except for the citycar variants. The forums bear this out.
Taking the example of the car used for school runs, etc, the "struggle to complete a working week without charging" is a non-issue provided the key condition exists of being able to charge at home.
There is a lot of noise about homes without off-street parking but there are many millions with that facility. I haven't seen a survey of how many who do not have off-street parking are car owners: many city-dwellers don't own a car.

While there are many pitfalls and yet-to-be-encountered problems with EVs (such as the cabling issues tomo mentioned), they are already a perfectly viable option for many folk. As I've said before, I think today's early adopters are enjoying a honeymoon time which will not last once - if - adoption becomes widespread.

"GC: your long post of 10:05 yesterday raises a lot of points, some of which I think are a little off-base."

"While there are many pitfalls and yet-to-be-encountered problems with EVs (such as the cabling issues tomo mentioned), they are already a perfectly viable option for many folk."

Sep 10, 2020 at 12:48 AM MikeHig

UK Company Car Taxation did encourage people to drive larger and better equipped cars than they would have bought with their own money. Ford led, and other manufacturers followed with the Trim levels of L GL GLS etc that were a bit of a mystery to others in Europe. A Company Car Fuel Card reduced the importance of economy.

UK Legislation changes did promote diesel cars, before slamming the motorists that had benefitted. Major and minor changes in Legislation do alter the specifications of cars being developed by manufacturers, engine types, performances achievable, before options and trim levels are chosen.

I do appreciate the advances in battery technology over the last 20-30 years, in mobile phones and cordless drills for example. The Engine Start batteries found in cars, and Leisure Batteries are still the same basic chemistry as 1970s Milk Floats and WW1 U Boats. It is much improved, and is very good, representing excellent value for money. Unfortunately, battery technology to power cars can still not compete with a 1000cc 40hp engine out of a 1980s Mini or Fiesta required to travel 200 miles in a single journey, or 50 miles around town over a working day of 8 hours.

I have not had reason to research the second hand values of battery cars. The UK has always had a very good supply of 3yr old ex company cars coming on to the market, some with more than 40,000 miles per year. This has been replaced by a good supply of 3-4 year old ex Hire Purchase and Maintenance Contract Cars, generally a bit smaller and under 15,000 miles per year. What is the second hand value or depreciation for a battery car needing new batteries? A competent DIYer can remove a knackered engine and replace it with a decent engine from a crash damaged wreck. The motorist unable to afford to buy new, is discriminated against by battery cars.

Electronic chip technology has already made motoring on a budget more expensive, as DIYers and Back Street Mechanics are excluded from competing with big Franchises with glossy showrooms.

Battery Cars are exclusive, only for those that can afford them. They are also inferior in terms of Range.

If Battery Car Motorsports are to be credible, they should compete against a 1000cc 50bhp petrol engined town car with a full tank of petrol around a racetrack for 200miles.

A new large saloon EV has been announced - the Lucid Air - which claims to be the fastest-charging EV on the market:
"All variants are claimed to be capable of recuperating 300 miles of range in just 20 minutes at a DC fast charger, making the Air “the fastest-charging electric vehicle ever offered”, according to Lucid. "
That's 24 kms of range per minute of charging: 216 km in 9 mins. My earlier post was behind the times.

That's 24 kms of range per minute of charging: 216 km in 9 mins. My earlier post was behind the times.
Sep 10, 2020 at 11:20 PM MikeHig

That is where battery cars need to be for the 10+year life of the car, but if they can't be cheaper, motoring becomes a luxury that only the wealthy can afford.

"I looked at a used Nissan Leaf (or e-NV200 ) as a local runabout "
Sep 11, 2020 at 7:21 AM tomo
If I lived in a town or city and was part of a two car family, I would also look for a cheap runabout, for daily mileage and trips not exceeding 50 miles.

If batterry manufacturers can not make their products cheaper, and car manufacturers can not make it easiers/quicker/cheaper to replace the batteries, the value of a second hand battery car becomes the number of recharges that the battery can take, before the battery and car become scrap value.

Hybrids give the option of unlimited range and battery lifespan, by not using the batteries. I expect many of them at 3 years old have batteries in Brand New Condition.

The best value runabout is probably a 5 year old diesel that the Green Blob doesn't want anyone to want.

tomo; charging infrastructure is a key advantage of Tesla with their supercharger network. This was posted a couple of days ago by a new Model 3 owner:
"Just done a 360 mile round trip today, and with the supercharger networks it really is a very trivial way to get around!
Stopped near the destination for a pit stop and comfort break - added 100 miles in the time it took for just me...
The charging network really does mean it can be your only car without any agro at all."

The other public chargers are improving, both in performance and in operation but they have a way to go. As they get better, enroute charging for non-Teslas will get easier for the rare times when it is needed.

EV purchase prices are still very high compared to an equivalent ICE car. That is why, imho, the market will be driven by PCP deals for private users and leases for companies. Monthly rates are already competitive when the various savings are taken into account, especially tax.

gc
I didn't want a leased battery see rates HERE
There's a bit at the bottom of the page about replacement batteries..... it doesn't stack up against running a propane powered car at 20,000 miles when you factor in the nause of finding (and waiting for) a charger on a 300 mile return journey.
Sep 11, 2020 at 1:43 PM tomo

Some of that seemed reasonable, but then this (dated before Lockdown) :

"Important update Feb 2020: It has become apparent that Renault can now longer replace or repair the Fluence battery pack, due to lack of parts availability. Customers who take their vehicles in to Renault for battery repairs or replacement are being offered the option to purchase the battery. One customer, who had a battery at 73% SOH, was given the option to purchase the battery for £1,750. This seems unfair that the battery rental agreement is continuing on all existing Fluence vehicles when Renault can't honour their side of the battery lease agreement!"

"EV purchase prices are still very high compared to an equivalent ICE car. That is why, imho, the market will be driven by PCP deals for private users and leases for companies. Monthly rates are already competitive when the various savings are taken into account, especially tax."

Sep 11, 2020 at 4:27 PM MikeHig

The market is still dependent on the Taxpayer subsidies that favour the wealthy able to afford new cars. Those on lower incomes will become excluded from car ownership. This is the elitism favoured by the Green Blob that socialists don't see or care about.

Grand plans to reduce car ownership and use, by providing more public transport with reduced choice of travelling have taken a bit of a set back because of Coronavirus