tomo; I think it's chalk and cheese. The Tesla system works very well; everything else is a lottery That said, not many EV users have any need to use public chargers so it's not a problem to the majority of them. Of course motor journalists get caught out regularly - one article ended with the car on a low-loader!

I'm with you 100% about this trend towards cars which are always connected to the web. Tesla have led the way in this as well, giving regular updates over the air (OTA, as they call it). Owners get in their car and discover that it has new features or a bug has been fixed. It can get nasty: some older Teslas have had their rate of charge and battery capacity cut because Tesla knows it's shagged and doesn't want to get caught under warranty.
Other manufacturers are going the same way. At least my god-forsaken computer usually asks me before implementing an upgrade and I can find out what it's for.
The potential for damage and disruption if ever one of these systems gets hacked is horrendous, especially the "self-driving".

"That said, not many EV users have any need to use public chargers so it's not a problem to the majority of them."

"The potential for damage and disruption if ever one of these systems gets hacked is horrendous, especially the "self-driving".

Sep 13, 2020 at 6:43 PM MikeHig

Battery Car owners are not going to put their trust in Public Chargers being available when and where they need them. Employers are not going to want their key employees stranded with flat batteries, if they can't even use their portable IT kit while waiting for a charger to become available.

With fatal failures already with self drive technology, I am not sure who will be held legally liable should a heavy truck proceed into stationary traffic at 60mph.

"Complete control has attracted some rather nasty players"

"What will change is the amount of tax on EVs - at the moment the owners are largely taking the piss - they're in for a surprise..."

Sep 14, 2020 at 12:02 PM tomo

If Bluetooth Coronavirus contact tracing Apps are ever successful, there will be some good and bad consequences and repercussions.

Tax and Subsidies are useful tools and weapons for Governments to deploy, but Unreliables still can't survive without them. If manufacturers of Battery cars do cut costs, subsidies will be reduced. The best way to encourage cost reductions by manufacturers would be an announcement of phased reductions of subsidies.

As Road Tax etc is supposed to pay for roads, how will any Government pay to maintain existing roads if no one pays any Road Tax?

From an EV forum:
"Wow, I never knew this could be so difficult - there must be others out there who have come up against this.
Spoke to my existing elec supplier today about moving to their EV Tafff, 00:00 to 05:00.

No problem but you need a smartmeter that talks to us every 30mins.

Wow, great, you installed one for me in 2016/17, happy f**king days, lets get the deal on.
Well no. You moved supplier in 2018/19, then moved back to us.

Yes, I do that a lot, I am allowed to.

Ah but there is the problem, your smart meter is an early v1 (or SMETS1) Smartmeter. If you have one of those and then switch it locks out and cannot be fixed, even if you later come back to us!
Well actually, there is a fix, and it was due to be released late 2019, but it wasnt, dont know why and your looking at mid-2021 earliest now.
Sorry, cant help you, doubt any other suppliers can either - but you can try. And no, you cant have a new smartmeter."

I doubt this is the first such case and it certainly won't be the last.

I doubt this is the first such case and it certainly won't be the last.

Sep 15, 2020 at 9:13 PM MikeHig

With suppliers of Electicity, Smart Meters and Chargers all contriving to create instant obsolescence and product incompatibility, Brand Loyality will become compulsory no matter how uncompetitive. Price rigging and fixing despite all the Taxpayer Subsidies is not good for consumer confidence.

This should give potential EV adopters some pause for thought. According to the DM oline:
"The Government is considering giving energy networks the power to switch off a household's energy supply without warning or compensation for those affected. A series of 'modifications' to the Smart Energy Code have been proposed by officials and look set to pass into law by next spring. These include giving networks the right to decide when they consider the grid to be in a state of 'emergency' and the power to switch off high usage electrical devices such as electric vehicle chargers and central heating systems in British homes."

tomo: thanks for the Cringely link. The comments are interesting too - especially those from Tesla owners.

tomo; your comment "It seems many EV owners are like "HiFi enthusiasts" - credulous and prepared to spend silly money on barely understood fripperies...." is spot on.
Not long ago I read a post by a Tesla owner who had paid an extra $6000 or so for FSD - Full Self Drive - when he bought the car 3 years ago. He was promised that roll-out was imminent.
When it didn't happen he asked whether his car would still be compatible when it did arrive: he was given positive assurances.
Some while later he was offered a free upgrade of his car's computer which he was told was needed to handle the totally-rewritten FSD software. He then found that his car had lost quite a lot of functions and was told it was due to the new computer not interfacing completely with his car's "old" control system. He then paid $2500 to have the control system upgraded and apparently everything is now good.
But FSD is still just over the horizon......

There are a lot like this guy: blind devotees who will happily pay to have all the latest gimmicks. I have thought of promoting myself as a bridge salesman, London based.

tomo: amazing! The cynic in me would love to see what would happen in a blind test of those cables against various bog-standard items.
It's all about perception. I used to do a lot of work with Thames Water who were very pleased that, in blind tastings, tap water usually come out at or near the top of preferences, ahead of bottled. They were also mightily vexed by the fact that they could put 1000 litres - a ton of water - into supply for less than the supermarket price of ONE litre of designer water.

Autoexpress confirm it for motorists thinking of buying battery cars:
*The Grid can't be supplied with sufficient electricity
* Residential street wiring can't handle it anyway
* SMART Meters are for command control to ration supplies not consumer benefit

https://www-autoexpress-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.autoexpress.co.uk/electric-cars/353209/energy-firms-want-right-switch-electric-cars-charging-home?

"Electric cars may be perfect for people with off-street parking and a home wallbox fast charger, but a new set of rules being mulled over by the energy watchdog, Ofgem, could see power cut to EVs if the electricity network requires it during times of high demand."

" The proposals, set out in a report by the Distribution Connection and Use of System Agreement (DCUSA), warns that “Electricity networks in Great Britain were not designed to accommodate the significant additional demand that certain consumer devices (such as electric vehicle (EV) chargers) presents.”

"To solve this problem, the report says it may be necessary “to allow Distributors control of consumer devices (such as Electric Vehicles) connected to Smart Meter infrastructure” - though this would only be done as a “last resort, emergency measure”, when “market solutions” (such as cheap electricity at off-peak times, for example) failed to solve the problem."

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/09/19/solar-panels-generate-mountains-of-waste/

"The problem of solar panel waste is now becoming evident. As environmental journalist Emily Folk admits in Renewable Energy Magazine, “when talking about renewable energy, the topic of waste does not often appear.” She attributes this to the supposed “pressures of climate change” and alleged “urgency to find alternative energy sources,” saying people may thus be hesitant to discuss “possible negative impacts of renewable energy.”

"Ms. Folk admits that sustainability requires proper e-waste management. Yet she laments, “Solar presents a particular problem. There is growing evidence that broken panels release toxic pollutants … [and] increasing concern regarding what happens with these materials when they are no longer viable, especially since they are difficult to recycle.”

GC: those points from Autoexpress are all valid concerns wrt to the uptake of EVs. However they need to be considered in context and a realistic time frame.
*The Grid can't be supplied with sufficient electricity.
The vast majority of EVs are charged overnight to take advantage of off-peak pricing. That is unlikely to change. There is ample capacity on the grid to meet that demand during off-peak hours. At the moment overnight demand is 10 - 15 GW below the daytime level. Even if every EV was charging at 7 kW during that time, 10 GW would supply nearly 1.5m of them. In reality many don't charge every night or, if they do, it's only a short top-up.
* Residential street wiring can't handle it anyway
Again, the time when people charge their EVs will mitigate the impact for some years as it will not overlap with typical household heavy consumers, for now. People use their hobs, cookers, power showers, washers, etc during waking hours. Problems are far more likely if/when there is a lage-scale switch to electric heating and hot water. I expect we will start to see examples of this problem where there is something like a small distribution company in a minor town that changes to EVs or where a number of households go EV in a small road on the edge of town.
* SMART Meters are for command control to ration supplies not consumer benefit
Not "are" but "will be". Afaik the present technology does not have the facility to shut off a heavy consumer item; the later meters might be able to shut down the whole household at a remote command. My guess is that rather than replacing all of the existing meters - again in many cases - the target equipment such as chargers, ASHPs, etc will have the facility to be shut off via the "internet of things". I'm groping in the dark on this techie stuff - tomo may have better info?

To sum up, these are all issues that will add to the woes of the public some years down the track, especially if we do go "all-electric". If I was a candidate for an EV, none of these would be a great concern as, imho, they are 10 years from becoming serious problems.

Sep 20, 2020 at 8:57 PM MikeHig
Sorry, but I don't share your optimism!
Overnight charging may work with reliable electricity, but wind is variable and solar doesn't work.

Existing SMART Meters are designed to ration or isolate total supplies during shortages. Your previous post did suggest that new Battery Charging Meters are required, bit I don't know whether these sub Meters will have separate isolation

Gas cooking, heating and hot water is to be banned. To try to balance supply and demand, the batteries in cars are going to double up as domestic batteries, so I am not sure whether domestic supplies can survive without the car being plugged in to top up the mains

tomo: there was a good analysis of Nikola in the weekend FT. It seems the company does not have much proprietary tech and that the game plan is to make money supplying Hydrogen.
I loved the irony that the efforts to get a clear picture of the company are being led by an outfit called Hindenburg!

GC: it's more realism than optimism!
Even if they do try to implement all these drastic measures as planned, I expect Captain Cockup to be in permanent residence before long! (If he can find his way out of the Health Dept of course).

"GC: it's more realism than optimism!
Sep 21, 2020 at 9:54 AM MikeHig"

tomo:
"..... it seems the company does not have much proprietary tech and that the game plan is to make money supplying Hydrogen."

Sep 21, 2020 at 9:50 AM MikeHig

The Green Blob are realising the practical problems of refilling, and storage of electrons. Many have realised that this would be simpler, if the Electrons were converted into Hydrogen, and somebody else will have to resolve the problems with firing up hydrogen.

More on the Nikola company......the CEO has just "stepped down".
Looking more and more like another Theranos, as tomo said.