Discussion > President Trump
Phil
Who knows what the truth is unless you live in Sweden)?
[..]
Who knows what the truth is - about anything? It's a sad old world when barely any sources can be accepted at face value and trusted as impartial and completely honest, lacking an agenda.
Well, you can either live in a world informed only by what you personally have experienced, or decide which sources you find reliable and credible. In practice that is a sliding scale. The Gatestone Institute you linked is a good example, wiki describes the body as 'accused of being islamophobic, and of promoting falsehoods and paranoia'. Wiki is not per se trustworthy, but you can at least read the sources it provides - and make a judgement as to how credible you find them, and so on and so forth.
It's a judgement call, and in my judgement, on the specific question of crime in Sweden I find the Swedish Nationella trygghetsundersökningen (National Crime Report) more reliable than Fox News and Donald Trump. YMMV.
On the question of AGW I find the IPCC, the National Science Academies and the peer-reviewed literature more credible than a blog that continues to host an accusation of data manipulation, even after the source of the claims has clearly said there was none. Again, YMMV.
My snark is great snark. Everyone says so. The best snark there is. Just wait until the next snark. It's gonna be great folks.
Phil Clarke
Robert. There will always be revisionist historians with us but some of the comments ring true. I certainly would not have wished to be a christian living in Moorish Grenada or Cordoba (but then I wouldn't have wished to be a Huguenot in France nor a Jew in most parts of Christian Europe. We shouldn't judge the past on the basis of present day values. Everything is relative. By comparison with most of the rest of Europe, Moorish Spain seems to have been rather enlightened (relatively).
As to Arab science, it is true that much was scavenged from others (the programme I mentioned discussed at length how much of arab mathematics was derived from Greek, Indian*, Persian and Mesopotamian sources). The genius of the arabs was to assemble and synthesize new mathematics from those ideas. But they did invent new mathematics, particularly Algebra. As to the sciences, they made significant and original advances, particularly in chemistry and optics. How did this occur? In large part by assembling huge libraries (particularly in Bagdad, Grenada and Constantinople) where texts were brought together from across the known world and translated into Arabic. It was the discovery of these texts from libraries in Moorish Spain when it was reconquered that transmitted Greek and Middle Eastern ideas into Europe. There are numerous surviving european texts acknowledging this.
So during the peak of arabic (and then turkish) culture, texts were treasured, translated and distributed, not burned.
* One part of the discussion was very new to me - the distinction between 0 as a spacer (distinguishing between for example 11 and 101) which was the Indian concept, and 0 as something between +1 and -1, which was a much later concept.
Supertroll
Correction the Swedish Crime Survey showed an increase of 0.9% to 1.7% between 2005 and 2015, I used total male and female.
geronimo
Feb 21, 2017 at 11:34 AM by Supertroll
"We shouldn't judge the past on the basis of present day values."
We shouldn't judge the present by the standards of the past! :) Especially from 1400 years ago.
Like most empires, Islam created social structures within which people lived and devoted time to 'other matters', some that did not attract much attention of the authorities because they were not considered a threat, while some were encouraged. It happened in the last century: Science was greatly advanced by the German State in the 1930s and 1940s but, today, we are careful to distinguish the Scientific endeavour and success from the political and the cultural. There needs to be a similar care with the Caliphate, especially as many of the leading lights did not ascribe their success to the oppressive culture of the day and the Caliphate caused so much destruction, and still does:
"We have no problem ascribing Newton’s achievements to science only, but when it comes to Avicenna or Ibn-Razi it’s Islamic science and Islam is an integral part of it. (EDIT: By most accounts, Razi was most probably not a Muslim, and here I meant to say that even his achievements are appropriated by Islamic hegemony. ...)
...
Islam, basically, is a hegemony that spreads by trying to define everything by itself. It has rules for everything, and it makes its presence known in everything. But more fundamentally, it claims everything as its own. Science in Muslim majority country is Islamic science, economy in Muslim majority country is Islamic economy, art in Muslim majority country is Islamic art. That is why even the title “The Islamic Golden Age” is a repressive misnomer, and a reinforcement of Islamic hegemony. It can be the Middle Eastern and North African Golden Age, but to call it Islamic it means those territories belong to Islam and they are a sub-category of Islam. That is why us ex-Muslims feel so much excluded, because every aspect of our culture is defined by Islam.
Do not attribute secular things of Middle East and North Africa and South Asia to Islam. Science is secular, even if the scientist practicing it is also a Muslim or Christian."
Let’s Stop Talking About “The Islamic Golden Age"
Robert Christopher
Rinkeby, hmmmm. I've got a blog friend who jokes about Trump being a time traveller.
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kim
Geronimo: Correction the Swedish Crime Survey showed an increase of 0.9% to 1.7% between 2005 and 2015, I used total male and female.
Quite. I was referring to the whole population, over the last few years when Sweden started taking in refugees and asylum seekers in large numbers. Geronimo's comparison was between two years, 2015 and 2005, and before correction, for offences against women only. Also, during that period the legal definition of rape in Sweden was broadened, so an increase in reported offences is unsurprising. Apples and Oranges.
My source was the Crime Survey which states
In the Swedish Crime Survey (NTU – Nationella trygghetsundersökningen), 1.0 per cent of the population (16 – 79 years of age), corresponding to approximately 76,000 persons, state that they had been exposed to sex offences. This is a decline as compared with 2013, when 1.3 per cent stated that they had been exposed. The level of sex offences remained relatively stable during the period 2005 – 2011, but the result for the past two years shows an increased level. However, the decline shown in the most recent measurement renders it difficult to analyse the trend.
Source: https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/rape-and-sex-offences.html
The report for 2016, available in English states:
Of those who answered the questions in the 2016 SCS, 13.3 per cent state that during the course of 2015, they were exposed to one or more of the types of offences referred to in the report as offences against the person: assault, threats, sexual offences, robbery, fraud or harassment. This is an increase as compared with the preceding year (in 2014 the percentage was 11.3%), but is approximately the same level as in 2005.
https://www.bra.se/download/18.4a33c027159a89523b17c401/1487173975453/Summary_NTU_2016.pdf
This during a period in which Sweden welcomed more immigrants per capita then any other country. Murder is excluded by the way because the rate is tiny: 89 in a population of 10 million. You might think a president interested in 'keeping his country safe' would be more interested in how they got to that number rather than bogus FoxFacts.
Geronimo also points to the high ranking of Sweden in the league of reported rapes, a phenomenon that long predates the recent immigration. This would be valid if police procedures and legal definitions were consistent countries, which they clearly are not.
Unlike the majority of countries in Europe, crime data in Sweden are collected when the offence in question is first reported, at which point the classification may be unclear. In Sweden, once an act has been registered as rape, it retains this classification in the published crime statistics, even if later investigations indicate that no crime can be proven or if the offence must be given an alternative judicial classification.Sweden also applies a system of expansive offence counts. Other countries may employ more restrictive methods of counting. The Swedish police registers one offence for each person raped, and if one and the same person has been raped on a number of occasions, one offence is counted for each occasion that can be specified. For example, if a woman says she has been raped by her husband every day during a year, the Swedish police may record more than 300 cases of rape. In many other countries only a single offence would be counted in such a situation.
In Sweden, crime statistics refer to the year when the offence was reported; the actual offence may have been committed long before. Swedish rape statistics can thus contain significant time-lag, which makes interpretations of annual changes difficult
Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden#Swedish_rape_statistics
Lastly Geronimo shares (twice) a youtube vid of a police chief advising women to take precautions against attack, however this seems to be in the aftermath of a spate of such offences in the area. A spate, in the case, meaning six. Six too many, obviously but I am not sure it is fair to condemn a whole country on that localised issue.
The statistics reveal nothing that justifies Trump's rhetoric.
Phil Clarke
Rinkeby. More hmmmm.
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kim
Robert to further enhance my reputation as a nit-picker I would even challenge the quotation "We have no problem ascribing Newton’s achievements to science only..." That is untrue. Newton did his science within a society that allowed him to do it - particularly his position within Cambridge University and his membership of the Royal Society (try to image Newton without the existence of these entities). British science has punched well above its weight because of the institutions we have, the support of the establishment. In many different areas there is a distinctiveness of many sciences conducted in the UK. The same goes for France and Germany. Even scientists from other countries commonly adopt the characteristics of their hosts. Others, of course, remain defiantly "foreign".
More recently, we speak about certain loathsome experiments as Nazi Science, and the drive to excel at space science and engineering as Soviet Science. All science takes place in the society where it is done, and is heavily influenced by it.
Nit-picking over.
Supertroll
Phil
I appreciate your observations, and also your integrity in citing the sources of your information, but your rush to conclude that there isn't a problem with immigration in Sweden vis-a-vis crime (especially violent and sexual crime) is rendered rather problematic to me by your use of wikipedia as quoted by you:
"Unlike the majority of countries in Europe, crime data in Sweden are collected when the offence in question is first reported, at which point the classification may be unclear. In Sweden, once an act has been registered as rape, it retains this classification in the published crime statistics, even if later investigations indicate that no crime can be proven or if the offence must be given an alternative judicial classification.
"Sweden also applies a system of expansive offence counts. Other countries may employ more restrictive methods of counting. The Swedish police registers one offence for each person raped, and if one and the same person has been raped on a number of occasions, one offence is counted for each occasion that can be specified. For example, if a woman says she has been raped by her husband every day during a year, the Swedish police may record more than 300 cases of rape. In many other countries only a single offence would be counted in such a situation.
"In Sweden, crime statistics refer to the year when the offence was reported; the actual offence may have been committed long before. Swedish rape statistics can thus contain significant time-lag, which makes interpretations of annual changes difficult".
Are you really suggesting that a crime shouldn't count in the crime statistics because it can't be proved? Rape is a notoriously difficult crime to bring successfully to trial. If you look at this web site:
https://rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php
you find these quotes:
"Only around 15% of those who experience sexual violence choose to report to the police"; and
"Conviction rates for rape are far lower than other crimes, with only 5.7% of reported rape cases ending in a conviction for the perpetrator. "
Yet your wikipedia quote tries to suggest in effect that Swedish rape statistics can't be trusted (or can't be compared fairly with statistics from other countries) because "In Sweden, once an act has been registered as rape, it retains this classification in the published crime statistics, even if later investigations indicate that no crime can be proven "
Your wikipedia quote also says (as if it somehow invalidates the statistics, because in some way it's the wrong way to register offences):
"The Swedish police registers one offence for each person raped, and if one and the same person has been raped on a number of occasions, one offence is counted for each occasion that can be specified. "
Your wikipedia quote also contains lots of "may" and "can", which is always a sure sign of uncertainty and an attempt to dress up a dubious argument with false verisimilitude.
I don't know what the true situation is in Sweden. It is many years since I visited that country and I don't know anyone who lives there. I don't know which sources I can trust, but on any politically sensitive subject I wouldn't trust wikipedia any more than I would trust Donald Trump or Fox News (basically I don't trust any of them).
Mark Hodgson
By the way, Phil, I do completely agree with this from you:
"Murder is excluded by the way because the rate is tiny: 89 in a population of 10 million. You might think a president interested in 'keeping his country safe' would be more interested in how they got to that number rather than bogus FoxFacts."
One of the things that I can never get to grips with in the USA is the indulgence shown to the gun lobby, especially by Republicans. Tragedy after tragedy, and nothing changes. Madness.
Mark Hodgson
I'm off to the library to see if they have the book by Robert Reilly mentioned by Martin A. This is a subject in which I am genuinely interested.
Feb 21, 2017 at 9:25 AM | Unregistered CommenterMark Hodgson
Mark H - I am looking forwrd to reading the book myself. But from its Amazon pages, it explains in depth what a French teacher of French once explained to me after I had mentioned to her that I had noticed that some post-graduate students, graduates of Middle Eastern countries, would react with irritation after asking me to explain some difficult aspect of information theory of which they clearly had not grasped even the basics, where I started by reviewing the elements of conditional probability. They would invariably ask me not to take up their time with these abstruse explanations but simply to tell them what text they needed to memorise.
The French prof explained that until about the time of the Norman invasion of England, philosophy, including maths, natural science, medicine, flourished in the muslim world. Then a Persian theologian, Al-Ghazali (thnks Google) , wrote a book The Incoherence of Philosophers, explaining that logic, debate and reasoning were not the correct means to understanding. Initially, that applied only to theology. But then the idea of things in general proceeding by cause and effect became regarded as an affront to God. Things happen because God wills it. No other explanation is needed nor permitted. The Muslim world, over the next few decades, adopted the idea that the only learning permitted was to memorise and recite the scriptures. To discuss their meaning and interpretation was itself an affront to God. Likewise, things happen in the physical world because God wills it. To search for other explanations is itself essentially blasphemy.
Thus, 800 years later, postgraduate engineering students who asked explicitly not to have things explained to them. And entire populations who take the Koran as their user manual for life.
Martin A
Hmmm, you may desire to exclude the murder rate, but has it risen in the last four years?
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kim
Feb 21, 2017 at 1:26 PM by Supertroll
"I would even challenge the quotation "We have no problem ascribing Newton’s achievements to science only..." That is untrue."
That is not nit-picking. It is wrong!
It is true, especially at the beginning of modern Science, that there were many clergy interested in God's universe and performed Scientific investigations, and Christian based organisations, such as universities, supported Scientific inquiry, but that is historical fact, not ascribing, today, past Scientific achievements to Christianity or the Church.
We don't say Newtonian Mechanics was achieved by "Christian Science" or the Church: it was achieved by the Scientific method, with a bit of original thinking thrown in.
In fact, it is more the case that there are many who treat Science and Christianity as opposing forces, where only one is true, ridiculing Biblical teaching while believing and misunderstanding Darwin's musings and believing that today's Scientists know how the Universe was created. We still have the falsehood of Galileo being more correct, so superior, than the Pope, when in fact the Church was on firmer ground.
The attitude is contributing to the denigration of Western culture, a culture that could afford a civilised existence. We don't want to reach the position of the person quoted in my last post:
"That is why us ex-Muslims feel so much excluded, because every aspect of our culture is defined by Islam."
Robert Christopher
Feb 21, 2017 at 2:04 PM on Martin A
"... but simply to tell them what text they needed to memorise."
What a ghastly story you relate, confusing memory with intelligence!
No wonder they remain in the 7th century and need others to think for them.
Robert Christopher
You miss the point entirely. Modern western science grew up within a culture that was and is in part an expression of christianity. Today's science is still being influenced by it. Medical science is influenced, sometimes controlled, by ethics, much of which is christianity based. There was a fear that some human genetics research would be done in South Korea and western researchers would fall behind.
You are once again altering goalposts. This discussion started with the question about why science in Muslim countries lost ground (ie science in the past, not today). You refer to revisionist historians (one of which as Phil Clarke notes is anti-Islamic) who question the standard view of the history of science. Now you use the attitude of today's extremist Islamists to science to "prove" that Islam is incompatible with doing science. Having worked with scientists in Egypt and research students from Algeria and Iran, I can definitely tell you that is totally wrong.
It is commonly claimed science is entirely secular. It isn't. Scientists are human and influenced by the society within which they practice. Even Darwin was profoundly influenced by the Christian faith of his wife.
Science is different in different settings. I would have loved to have worked in that Australian university where everyone was called Bruce.
Supertroll
Caution with Sweden rape stats
Don't compare apples with oranges
They changed the counting system abt 10years ago
So if
1 guy penetrates 2 girls twice in one incident and then comes home and does same to wife
That counts as6 rapes
In as Germany 3
And in most arab countries marital rape is not recognized.
stewgreen
Times: !Berlin to annul marriages of 500 migrant children.
Will PC go on Wikipedia and prove that's fakeNews?
stewgreen
It was the crime survey people who chose to exclude murder, not I. I guess the variance in such a titchy number makes deriving statistically significant comparisons difficult.
http://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/murder-and-manslaughter.html
It goes up, it goes down, long term trend in absolute numbers slightly negative despite population growth. I see nothing there that could accurately be described as 'problems like they never thought possible.'.
Meanwhile the Swedish policemen interviewed in the film by Ari Horowitz, whose remarks on Fox apparently prompted The Donald's ill judged statement have said the material was dishonestly edited to make it appear they were blaming immigrants for crime when they were not.
the Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter on Monday quoted two police officers interviewed by Horowitz, Anders Goranzon and Jacob Ekstrom, as saying that the filmmaker had selectively edited and distorted their comments to prove his thesis. They said that Horowitz had asked them about high-crime neighborhoods and that they did not agree with his argument about links between migration and crime. "We don't stand behind what he says," Goranzon said. "He is a madman."
https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2017/02/20/trump-pursues-his-attack-on-sweden-with-scant-evidence/
Fake News. It's everywhere!
Phil Clarke
Fake News. It's everywhere!
Feb 21, 2017 at 3:19 PM | Phil Clarke
Which is why Trump is disinvesting US Taxpayers from Climate Science
golf charlie
Feb 21, 2017 at 2:04 PM Martin A. Very interesting (I somehow missed this when you posted). I have vague recollections of once knowing this, but it faded. Good to be reminded of it. I venture to suggest that your experience might also have been caused by you not being senior enough. Middle eastern students tend to put great stock in the authority of who is instructing them.
I had one Egyptian colleague who was very devout - at appointed times he would take out his compass and mat in the middle of the desert and everything we were doing (usually drilling rocks for palaeomagnetic samples) had to stop. There were no other members of his faith to observe him. I cannot recall him ever expressing this kind of logic.
It's so easy to judge another religion, when our own is afflicted by the same problems. You wrote " And entire populations who take the Koran as their user manual for life." Ever been to the rural south of the US and seen the well thumbed Bibles?
Supertroll
Feb 21, 2017 at 3:04 PM by Supertroll
I was responding to this comment, the one I put at the top of my post!
Feb 21, 2017 at 1:26 PM by Supertroll
Supertroll: "I would even challenge the quotation "We have no problem ascribing Newton’s achievements to science only..." That is untrue."
In your posts, you acknowledge, repeatedly, that many of those at the forefront of early Scientific investigation were followers of Christ, but that was not my point.
I am not attempting to prove anything: proofs are for geometry classes. And I am not trying to prove, or show, that Islam is incompatible with doing Science.
My point is that portraying that Science owes Islam anything unique beyond supplying a social structure in which to live with some free time to think does not really hold water. We don't do the same for Christianity or Hinduism: we say British, French or Indian scientists, or scientists at a particular university, instead.
In fact, today, when Christianity is mentioned in the same sentence as Science, it is often to ridicule Christian teaching or to try and disprove Biblical teaching, yet rarely is Islam questioned: very puzzling! :)
The attitude of today's extremist Islamists is very similar to Mohammed, so I cannot see that these troubles will fade with time, given the continued destruction in Europe and the inability of our MSM to report the facts; so it is important not to incorrectly attribute anything positive to that ideology:
Islamic Jihad : Three Stages of Islamic Jihad
And just because Phil Clarke, especially Phil Clarke, notes an author is anti-Islamic, it does not mean the author should be ignored. :)
Robert Christopher
Robert. Did I ever say or imply that: "portraying that Science owes Islam anything unique beyond supplying a social structure in which to live with some free time to think does not really hold water."? I think not. In earlier posts you were arguing that early Islam was anti-science, burning texts and suggesting the golden age of Islam, when the sciences flourished was a myth. I demurred.
Many of today's Moslem sects are decidedly anti-science, but that is not unique to Islam.
Supertroll
Feb 21, 2017 at 4:53 PM by Supertroll
"Did I ever say or imply that Science owes Islam anything unique ..."
You quoted it, and continued the BBC inference:
Feb 21, 2017 at 9:21 AM by Supertroll
"Last week there was a Radio 4 programme on Arab mathematics (probably Melvin Bragg's Thursday morning programme) where the question of why their scientific dominance did not continue."
In earlier posts you were arguing that early Islam was anti-science, burning texts and suggesting the golden age of Islam, when the sciences flourished was a myth.
My post @ 10:04 AM has:
"... the continuation of learning, science, technology of the "Golden age of Islam" prospered in spite of Islam and not because of Islam ..."
The Sciences might have flourished, but it was in spite of Islam. That is different to 'The Golden Age of Islam'.
Many of today's Moslem sects are decidedly anti-science, but that is not unique to Islam.",
Being anti-Science isn't really a problem for the rest of us. It is the disruption they cause because of their intolerance to our culture. Asad Shah was killed for wishing everyone a Happy Christmas. France is still in a 'State of Emergency'. It started on 13 November 2015 and, after four extensions, it has been extended until the 2017 presidential elections. These are people, mostly fit men of military age, who invited themselves in to (our) alien European (and British :) ) culture, yet find it impossible, or do not want, to integrate. I wouldn't call their behaviour very conducive to any constructive occupation, and that would include Science. I can't see many building Peugeots or BMWs, though it appears that Angela Merkel can, or could!
Robert Christopher
You refer to revisionist historians (one of which as Phil Clarke notes is anti-Islamic)
Huh?
Phil Clarke
"Sweden took in a record 163,000 asylum seekers in 2015. Sexual offences declined by 13% between 2014 and 2015, to about the same rate as 2005.."
Fake news Phil is back in town.
According to the Swedish Crime Survey the rapes and sexual crime on women in Sweden went up from 1.5% to 3% (of the general population).
According to NationMaster Sweden is 6th in the world for rapes (others show 2nd but 6th indicates something is wrong).
Thing are going so swimmingly that this felt the need to warn Swedish women not to go out after dark.
While this one didn't get the Phil Clarke memo either. There is evidence that the Swedish authorities have been playing down the crimes using Code 291 to keep the peace.
I'm not keen on Trump but, at least on the evidence I've seen, Sweden has got problems they never thought they would get he's right.