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Discussion > President Trump

@Brendan H

yep... neither the D's or the R's are innocent of tinkering with elections successfully...

The answer is voter ID, unequivocal rights to watch ballots being counted and as Scott Adams has related at some length - the software machines use must be open and audited, the machines need to be sealed off from the Internet for the duration of the contest with rigorously enforced, clear chain of custody for the results. Voter rolls need cleaning up.

The whole idea that the machines are wiped at any stage prior to the start of a winner's tenure is farcical - if Google / Microsoft / Amazon etc. can archive tens of gigabytes per person for no direct charge - any tinkering with results has to be regarded as overt tampering with the election.

Buying followers isn't exactly unknown

Dec 5, 2020 at 5:45 PM | Registered Commentertomo

• Dominion Voting Systems are in fact auditable—and are audited and tested regularly by multiple government agencies and independent third parties. All electronic devices used in the U.S. must be designed to be audited.
• Dominion's system does in fact include a paper ballot backup to verify results. In fact, thousands of elections officials in Georgia just completed the largest vote recount in American history using the paper ballots produced by Dominion devices.
• Despite repeated counts and audits, there is no evidence of any kind that any voting system deleted, lost, or changed votes in Georgia, or in any of the other 28 states that use Dominion devices. Certifications and audits have instead shown the accuracy, transparency, and reliability of Dominion's systems.
• The federal government agency that oversees U.S. election security verified that there is no evidence that this election was in any way compromised. In fact, they have called it the most secure election in American history.
• Servers that run Dominion software are located in local election offices, and data never leaves the control of local election officials.

From <https://www.dominionvoting.com/dominion-statement-on-sidney-powell-charges/>

Voter identification laws are a part of an ongoing strategy to roll back decades of progress on voting rights.  Thirty-four states have identification requirements at the polls. Seven states have strict photo ID laws, under which voters must present one of a limited set of forms of government-issued photo ID in order to cast a regular ballot – no exceptions.

Voter ID laws deprive many voters of their right to vote, reduce participation, and stand in direct opposition to our country’s trend of including more Americans in the democratic process. Many Americans do not have one of the forms of identification states acceptable for voting. These voters are disproportionately low-income, racial and ethnic minorities, the elderly, and people with disabilities.  Such voters more frequently have difficulty obtaining ID, because they cannot afford or cannot obtain the underlying documents that are a prerequisite to obtaining government-issued photo ID card.

From <https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet>

Dec 5, 2020 at 8:51 PM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

https://twitter.com/strxwmxn/status/1333786408406827010

Dec 5, 2020 at 9:11 PM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

A Clarky comprehension failure - do you actually know what a software audit actually is?

Do you think for a moment that Dominion would say other than what they are saying ? ...... After all - look at the dozens of governments that relied on Crypto AG and Omnisec assurances for decades.

As for voter ID - that second blockquoted paragraph is mendacious racist festering patronising pigshit - the ACLU - an organisation that I supported years ago has gone the same precipitously downward path as Amnesty International....

Be like Labour in the UK resisting voter ID but requiring ID to attend meetings....

Dec 6, 2020 at 1:35 AM | Registered Commentertomo

So which of the points Dominion make is incorrect?

A voter uses a machine, it prints out his choice for him to check. The paper and electronic ballot is retained.

In Georgia, a hand recount of the paper ballots showed the same result, within the usual margins of error as the original count. Adams is as wrong about this as he is about climate change.

Dec 6, 2020 at 9:46 AM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/elections/VotingSystems/DVS-DemocracySuite511/testReport.pdf

Requiring Voter ID does disenfranchise some people, not just according to civil liberties groups, the courts have repeatedly made the same finding, and it is overwhelmingly the poor and minorities who lose out. In this test case the judge found that Wisconsin's strict ID rule produced 'real incidents of disenfranchisement, which undermine rather than enhance confidence in elections, particularly in minority communities'

The same judges repeatedly find that voter impersonation is virtually non-existent, and Voter ID does little to prevent it.

Often, voter fraud is cited as a justification for such laws even when the incidence of voter fraud is low. In Iowa, lawmakers passed a strict voter ID law with the potential to disenfranchise 260,000 voters. Out of 1.6 million votes cast in Iowa in 2016, there were only 10 allegations of voter fraud; none were cases of impersonation that a voter ID law could have prevented. Iowa Secretary of State Paul Pate, the architect of the bill, admitted, "We've not experienced widespread voter fraud in Iowa."

From <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_suppression#United_States>

Dec 6, 2020 at 10:36 AM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

There's no way Sleepy Joe got more votes than Trump with his devoted fanbase and rallies. Just no way.

Dec 6, 2020 at 4:51 PM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

I do remain puzzled about how Biden won a record low of 16.7% of the counties, yet supposedly won the election with the most votes in history. Something is not adding up, here, at all…. 🤔

Dec 6, 2020 at 5:35 PM | Registered CommenterRadical Rodent

RR, here are some of the things that don't "add up":

https://www.theepochtimes.com/election-fraud-allegations-infographic_3605589.html

Dec 6, 2020 at 6:18 PM | Unregistered CommenterCharly

https://eu.usatoday.com/in-depth/graphics/2020/11/10/election-maps-2020-america-county-results-more-voters/6226197002/

Second map. It's just psephology. As I noted earlier, there is a huge variance in the size of counties and Trump won by small numbers of votes in many counties, while Biden won by much larger vote margins across fewer counties. Biden won Los Angeles, Cool, King, Kings, Philadelphia, and New York, those 6 counties - that's just 0.2% of circa 3000 - brought him over 7.5 million votes.

And Biden actually won 477 counties, versus 472 for Hillary in 2016, I'm not seeing anything suspicious here.

Dec 6, 2020 at 7:03 PM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

Requiring Voter ID does disenfranchise some people, not just according to civil liberties groups, the courts have repeatedly made the same finding, and it is overwhelmingly the poor and minorities who lose out. In this test case the judge found that Wisconsin's strict ID rule produced 'real incidents of disenfranchisement, which undermine rather than enhance confidence in elections, particularly in minority communities'

Standard SJW / woken victimhood bilge - no explanation given beyond the inference that the "poor and minorities" are too stupid / ignorant to identify themselves - so we should allow them to vote without *any* checks? - yeah, right-oh. I find the evasiveness when it come to elaborating the detail of voter suppression frustrating as most dissolves into TLDR nitpicking - mostly consequent from the morass of regional differences in the voting system that both major parties have historically sought to exploit. Local elections are just that ... and subject to the vagaries of provincial bureaucrats - the Federal elections for national posts need cleaning up big time - that's obvious.

Some voter ID laws are likely a cure worse than the disease - but successful manipulation of elections is just that ... and not getting caught is central to any effort...

There is a compromise to be had in there somewhere - and by the look of it - there is some way to go.

Dec 6, 2020 at 7:24 PM | Registered Commentertomo

You didn't actually bother reading any of the material then. That's Ok, you don't have to.

It is not difficult, it takes money and supporting documentation to get an ID, the people who have insufficient of either are poor by definition and/or disproportionately in minorities. Native Americans living on reservations for example are eligible voters but as they often do not have road names or house numbers they do not qualify as having a permanent address as recognised for ID purposes. The problem was addressed by the creation of a 'Tribal ID', but some states do not recognise it. Result: one in three of over 5 million Native Americans do not register to vote and turnout is 10% lower than for other ethnic groups.

Or take the test case I linked…

Mrs. Smith has lived in Milwaukee since 2003.1 She was born at home, in Missouri, in 1916. In her long life she has survived two husbands, and she has left many of the typical traces of her life in public records. But, like many older African Americans born in the South, she does not have a birth certificate or other documents that would definitively prove her date and place of birth. After Wisconsin’s voter ID law took effect, she needed a photo ID to vote. So she entered the ID Petition Process (IDPP) at the Wisconsin Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) to get a Wisconsin ID. DMV employees were able to find Mrs. Smith’s record in the 1930 census, but despite their sustained efforts, they could not link Mrs. Smith to a Missouri birth record, so they did not issue her a Wisconsin ID. She is unquestionably a qualified Wisconsin elector, and yet she could not vote in 2016. Because she was born in the South, barely 50 years after slavery, her story is particularly compelling. But it is not unique: Mrs. Smith is one of about 100 qualified electors who tried to but could not obtain a Wisconsin ID for the April 2016 primary.

Or the North Carolina ID law that was thrown out by the appeals court:

The appeals court noted that the North Carolina Legislature "requested data on the use, by race, of a number of voting practices" — then, data in hand, "enacted legislation that restricted voting and registration in five different ways, all of which disproportionately affected African Americans."

The changes to the voting process "target African Americans with almost surgical precision," the circuit court wrote, and "impose cures for problems that did not exist."

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/07/29/487935700/u-s-appeals-court-strikes-down-north-carolinas-voter-id-law

Dec 6, 2020 at 8:05 PM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

19 bellweather counties have voted for the winning candidate every election since 1980 - except 2020 when 18 voted for Trump.

No one has won the Whitehouse without winning Florida and Ohio in last 60 years - except Biden

Democrats lost every swing seat in the House of Representatives but still won the presidency.
No one has ever managed that - except Biden

Whoever you support, you should support trustworthy elections.

Joe Biden is a romantic idealist in the age of cynicism and snark

Dec 6, 2020 at 8:19 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Well actually Clarky I did read ...

What part of Federal elections >> federal rules >> consistently applied across states - a participatory democracy with clear qualification to vote rather than the grotesque partisan (and in may cases arbitrary) free for all that it seems to be.

As for the "Native American" voters - there's a fair bit of curious / bizarre anachronistic regulation when it comes to those folk - who can happily run casinos etc. and swerve taxes on all sorts of items.

The qualification to vote for a national representative needs to be transparent and singular -> you want to participate ? - prove you've paid taxes, have utility bills, birth certificate, land deeds, formal citizenship - say 2 out of 5?

The DNC seemed to put very little effort into promoting Biden / Harris policies / appearances - my perception was a flat, lacklustre campaign - essentially bland, platitudinous unappealing flat, boilerplate guff - and *not* even particularly motivating when it came to "vote out Orange Man" - the outcomes in Congressional swing states in particular do not chime with a Biden win.

Voter eligibility and election process needs cleaning up and Americans need to deal with that - what we've seen in this unusual year seems ample evidence that something's broken.

Dec 6, 2020 at 8:54 PM | Registered Commentertomo

Once again, the clue is in the name, it is the right to vote, a critical element of democracy. Time and time again that basic right has been parlayed into a privilege, disenfranchising people because they cannot afford to get an ID or lack the requisite documentation.

The US cost of Photo ID ranges from $75 to $175. 11% of Americans, which equates to 21 million people, do not have a Government issued Photo Id. You would disenfranchise the poor?

25% of African-American citizens of voting age do not have government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites.

But I quite like the idea of denying the vote to those who cannot prove they have paid their taxes. A high-profile example comes to mind.

Dec 6, 2020 at 10:30 PM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

Get well soon,

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1335679426516881409

Dec 6, 2020 at 11:23 PM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

Melissa Carone (a Dominion contractor) on the Dominion setup in Michigan

I know one country notionally in Europe where you can't buy alcohol without showing your income tax return.... so fvck off Clarky....

Disenfrachise the poor ? - nah - just starve them to death...

Have you been to America Clarky? - how do you think you might get by with no ID? Requisite documentation is a part of life wherever you go - have you ever tried doing anything without it?

You'll have to shout more - the sound is barely making it out through your trousers.

Dec 7, 2020 at 12:44 AM | Registered Commentertomo

Buying alcohol is hardly a fundamental right.

Usual quality source from Tomo. Carone's allegations were tested in court weeks ago and found to be 'simply not credible'.

Pot, meet Kettle. ;-)

Dec 7, 2020 at 9:57 AM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

Tomo (Dec 6, 2020 at 7:24 PM): this might help to explain much of the antipathy to voter ID.

Basically, it’s “them dumb niggas” who don’t know what to do – they are so dumb that “we privileged whiteys” must look after them, ‘cos they don’t even know how exploited and oppressed they are! I could take great exception to that whole concept, but I do find it quite hilarious!

Dec 8, 2020 at 2:06 PM | Registered CommenterRadical Rodent

Then there is this, which shows just how safe the vote-counting is….

Dec 8, 2020 at 11:54 PM | Registered CommenterRadical Rodent

Seven States Will Join Texas in SCOTUS Lawsuit Against Georgia, Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania

Dec 9, 2020 at 2:47 AM | Registered Commentertomo

Uproxx a "hip hop lifestyle pile of kack" for teenagers? - bit off base for a purported retiree from rural Derbyshire - quoting from salon.com, vox and CNN not providing the bite you feel is needed eh? - been listening to those CNN morning calls? - not likely!....

Anonymously "Scanned on a Xerox multifunction printer" - by a provincial circuit court ?

"This is not a final order and does not close the case"

Try this

Dec 9, 2020 at 3:12 AM | Registered Commentertomo

Quoting from a Democratic Party affiliate when the Michigan 3rd circuit court records are online huh?

Dec 9, 2020 at 3:33 AM | Registered Commentertomo

As ever, attack the source, avoid the substance. Lame. Your star witness just completed a year's probation for harassing her boyfriend’s ex-wife by sending the ex-wife tapes of her and her boyfriend having sex. Class.

Her fraud allegations were previously assessed in court by Hon Judge Kenny:

Ms. Carone’s description of the events at the TCF Center does not square with any of the other affidavits. There are no other reports of lost data, or tabulating machines that jammed repeatedly every hour during the count. Neither Republican nor Democratic challengers nor city officials substantiate her version of events. The allegations simply are not credible

And her testimony was so 'flamboyant' it was the subject of a Saturday Night Live parody

Great work, there. ;-)

Dec 9, 2020 at 9:42 AM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke

Do I have this correct? The Attorney General for Texas is filing suit with the Supreme Court arguing that late-breaking changes to enable mail-in voting in Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania and Georgia were unconstitutional.

Texas being a state that made late-breaking changes to enable mail-in voting.

Paxton being a man under indictment for securities fraud. Who has been reported by aides as they have a good faith belief that the Attorney General is violating federal and/or state law, including prohibitions relating to improper influence, abuse of office, bribery and other potential criminal offenses.

Amusingly, his wife was elected to the State Senate and attempted to pass a bill that would enable the AG to exempt individuals from, um, securities laws. Disappointingly for the Paxtons, it failed to get a hearing.

This desperate attempt will probably be dismissed as rapidly as the similar suit from Pennsylvania, but I wonder if Mr Paxton will catch the Donald's eye and be included in the upcoming Pardonfest?

Popcorn ;-)

Dec 9, 2020 at 12:17 PM | Unregistered CommenterPhil Clarke