Discussion > President Trump
GolfCharlie. "Hardly a neutral source" Are you so prejudiced against the Guardian that you dismiss photographic evidence distributed by AP showing briefing/reminder notes held in his pudgy little hands?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/22/i-hear-you-trump-uses-cue-cards-to-remind-him-to-listen-to-shooting-survivors
Supertroll
Making notes like this could be part of his general preparations for any meeting – who knows? It is known that many do make such notes prior to meetings; the actual content and details might vary. To condemn a person for what might be an acceptable practice in any other situation does seem a little … well… let’s call it disingenuous, shall we?
Radical Rodent
"There's nowhere in this country that I want to go to that fear of violence prevents me from doing so."
Yeah... the same obviously applies to BBC crews - and your point is precisely what?
tomo
Feb 22, 2018 at 11:55 AM | Supertroll
I was only quoting Phil Clarke - hardly a neutral source.
What is good for the gooser, is good for the ganderer.
When it comes to Trump, and Global Warming, I DO regard The Guardian as financed pay-per-propaganda.
I hope you will have noticed that I also quote The Guardian favourably on some issues. The Guardian does publish some controversial articles, requiring the best standards of journalism, unfortunately on some issues, they have become part of the plot, as it thickens.
If 50% of Robert Christopher's link is true, would you change your mind about Trump's integrity, and The Guardian's?
When it comes back to your specific point, Trump was not reading a script, or pre-prepared speech. As you will recall, he has previously got himself tongue-tied, made up words and gaffes. I know I have spoken and later realised I have forgotten to add or emphasise something really obvious. I don't know whether Trump is a trained bereavement counsellor, I am not.
Obama and Bill Clinton appeared more comfortable under the spotlight in similar situations, but were they subjected to such hostility from the media? St Hillary is well established to have been deceitful, so was her husband. How much of Obama's reputation will be revealed as carefully scripted and contrived?
golf charlie
Tomo - It was a response to the paranoid question:
last time I looked the London rate wasn't exactly something to crow about - eh ? Spent any time on London streets after dark recently ?
That would be hard as I live several hundred miles away in a National Park, however, nothwithstanding a lack of first hand experience, I am sure 99.9% of London streets are perfectly safe at all hours. UK Gun crime has spiked up in the last or so year months, but the murder rate is significantly lower than it was 5 years ago.
My point is that living in this country with a some of the strictest gun control measures in the world and per capita gun murder rate of 1 per million, the fear of gun violence has no impact on my life; for residents of the US, with a rate 30 times higher and where they have to drill school pupils in have to deal with an 'active shooter', not so much.
Phil Clarke
Phil Clarke
Fear of gun violence locally does not bother me most of the time - rural county.
I can however assure you that a certain amount of paranoia about personal safety and possessions is an entirely rational response in many areas of London and many of the UK's metro-urban areas to the presence of an assortment of very real threats. I remind you yet again that BBC small OB teams routinely have a serious dude minder - paranoid?
As a general principle "If you do not pay attention, unpleasant things are more likely to happen" - is a dictum I adhere to - I have had to deal with the consequences of other people thinking that they can do what they like, where they like, when they like.
Try quoting your statistics to a London street gang crew or an unhinged mugger after your kit.
I really wish it weren't so - I really do - but crime statistics have historically been one of the most manipulated and misinterpreted public data sets out there. There's hardly a trick been missed in the attempts to play stuff down (and just occasionally up).
My point is that living in this country with a some of the strictest gun control measures in the world and per capita gun murder rate of 1 per million, the fear of gun violence has no impact on my life; for residents of the US, with a rate 30 times higher and where they have to drill school pupils in have to deal with an 'active shooter', not so much.
Your above example of statistics vs. on the ground local conditions is self evidently daft and self serving.
tomo
That was my point, I have no desire to frequent drug corners or gang turf so to me, conditions there are moot.
You're now seeking to widen the discussion to all violent crime, when the topic was gun control and gun crime, which statistically is just not a significant risk for the overwhelming majority here.
Most crimes involving guns do not result in the weapon being fired. In
the year to October 2017, of the 2,542 gun crimes, 770 guns were fired:
318 of which were classed as lethal weapons.
Source: GLA
318 discharges of a lethal weapon, fewer than 1 a day in a city of over 8 million. Far more people die falling down stairs. I can easily see why a 'rationally paranoid' person might not like the stats - but then people are notoriously bad at assessing risk.
Phil Clarke
Phil
so...you can recognise drug corners and gang turf eh? impressive - I bet you can tell a popular mugging patch too eh?
aw... whiny "you're widening the discussion" - yes - you are just as dead from a stab wound or a battering and it does play into the gun thing since knives in schools are an issue in many places at present.
I've met people who were self evidently bad at assessing risk in hospitals and had to write the HSE reports - you? - not so much eh?
Like vehicle incidents / industrial injuries - younger individuals predominate in the gun statistics. In some ways that could be construed as the nature of things - but is that actually true? - or is the education system (and parents) failing?
tomo
Far more people die falling down stairs. I can easily see why a 'rationally paranoid' person might not like the stats - but then people are notoriously bad at assessing risk.
Feb 22, 2018 at 2:58 PM | Phil Clarke
What percentage of those stair deaths were the result of drugs, including alcohol, used legally or not?
What percentage of actual shootings in the UK were the result of drugs, including cannabis, that the Green Party would like to legalise?
The Green Party are notoriously bad at assessing anything.
golf charlie
Phil Clarke & tomo,
Given what we know now, it would have been sensible, not paranoid, for Trump to have had the entire White House swept for surveillance devices left by previous occupants or their "agents".
I wonder whether he had drug sniffer dogs in too.
golf charlie
Feb 22, 2018 at 3:34 PM | tomo
It will be interesting to note any change in statistics that results from the introduction by UK Police of mouth swab tests, for the detection of drugs other than alcohol, by Officers, at the time of arrest.
I do not know whether such tests are used in the US.
Some UK companies already test their employees. Some UK Companies are worried about testing their employees, for fear of what the results might reveal.
golf charlie
gc
dope testing .... I am very cynical about that - in my direct experience it's usually only the peons that get tested....
The CEO is regularly DUI but the car park attendant is regularly pee sampled....
It works well for enforcing Malaria prophylaxis dosing though.
tomo
GolfCharlie. My point wasnt about Trump but about the Guardian. Reading the posts again it does seem you were writing about the Grauniad, but it could be ambiguous.
I too have taken bullet points into a meeting, but would keep them hidden. So for once I was not mocking the hairpieced one.
Supertroll
Under the rug, orange shaded, with a bullet point.
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kim
Hooray, Phil recognized the difference between a predator and a rapist, but didn't actually admit that he preferred the rapist, though one might think so from his rhetoric. Let's ask this, then; which would you prefer for the descriptor of the husband of the most powerful woman in the world, deplored though be her name, and his?
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kim
OT but not by much....
More black people were stabbed to death by other black people in London in 2017 than the total number of victims at Grenfell.
So statistically as a lighter skinned person London is safer for me? - or something like that.
tomo
Supertroll, I don't consider Phil Clarke or The Guardian a reliable source, when it comes to Trump or Climate Science. Their track record suggests mutual dependency.
When Trump calls something Fake News, he is at least 97% accurate. Phil Clarke tends to be wrong about Fake News, but still believes he is right. Obviously Trump has had an advantage over everyone, because he knew, first hand what was Fake, and who the Fakers were.
The far from perfect Trump, is winning the credibility war. So far ......!
golf charlie
Define 'mass shooting' .
4 or more injured or killed?
Inner city Black on Black violence.
clipe
Feb 22, 2018 at 2:34 PM | tomo
I also live in a rural county. I hear gunfire regularly. Shotguns, on the local shoot.
When it comes to the ownership of "guns"in the UK, there are very few rifles, pistols, revolvers etc, due to Hungerford and Dunblane. Most are shotguns (double barrelled), they are lethal weapons, but limited range, and only hold two cartridges.
The majority of UK gun crime involves illegal weapons. Those who smuggle drugs, can also smuggle guns.
golf charlie
Feb 22, 2018 at 2:58 PM | Phil Clarke
I forgot to thank you for that link to GLA. A reliable source presumably, but:
It provides some statistics about Firearms surrendered. It does not provide info about the Make, Calibre or type of weapon used. Rifle, semi-auto/full-auto, pistol, revolver or semi-auto etc. If shots have been fired, and bullets and/or spent cartridges recovered and examined by forensics, this should be clear.
This would give a better idea of where the Firearms had been manufactured, and which countries they might have travelled to, prior to coming to the UK illegally.
golf charlie
I think I see...(fill in the blanks)
clipe
clipe
thanks for that
I wonder how many of those ghastly students (and one erm... "academic") have seen it?
It'd be even more interesting to scope out the extents of the campus conceits beyond a vox pop.
tomo
A twitter thread that hits so many buttons on the Florida school shooting that one wonders if it's fake...
Looks like CNN were up to their old tricks at the Town Hall and that the local school board and the Broward sheriff are coming undone.... the FBI and now even The Secret Service are being sucked in....
tomo
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/22/donald-trump-insists-arming-teachers-guns-shootings
If Trump believes that all teachers are immune from psychological episodes of violent and/or murderous rage, whether drug induced or not, Trump is wrong.
golf charlie
Clipe: it is difficult selecting any one site to quote as an example, as it is likely that there will be someone who will dismiss that site as biased. Perhaps we should look at what one might consider “opposition” sites: the Daily Mail and the Guardian. Both are reporting a notable increase in gun crime, so it would be quite reasonable to presume that there has been an increase in gun crime. That this should occur in a country which has, debatably, some of the strictest gun-control laws in the world should raise questions about the efficacy of gun-control laws. One could also ask: what was the level of gun crime in the UK when gun-control laws were not as strict?
It should be noted that, with a few exceptions, the possessor of the gun used in the committing of a crime did not gain possession of that gun legally, and is committing a crime by retaining possession of that gun, so it could be said that one thing common with any crime is that the perpetrator is obviously prepared to disregard laws. It is not the guns that are causing the crimes, it is the breakdown in the individual’s respect of law, and of fellow humans; these crimes are but a symptom of an over-arching problem. Removing the right to bear arms is like removing the right to drive, just because a few people drive dangerously (cars remain a far bigger killer of Americans than guns).
Cleverly worded, Mr Clarke, and I could say exactly the same for the USA, or Honduras, or South Africa, or even Venezuela. But, what about those places you do not want to go to?