Discussion > President Trump
Latest dossier twists.....
tomo
Of course, you could put the US homicide rate into its perspective – not that I am advocating that they should not address the problem, but that they might be barking up the wrong tree. Data collected from here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Radical Rodent
@RR
in quite a lot of places it's been pointed out that if you drop several large longtime Democrat run , strict gun law metro areas from the US stats - the USA drops several more places down that league table...
I wonder what the handgun ban has done for UK handgun crime stats?
tomo
Feb 20, 2018 at 9:43 PM | Radical Rodent
That is an interesting , but sadly depressing graph.
I would be curious to know how many USA Households are 1 or 2 Firearm households, and how many own 6 or more. It is much easier for someone to obtain a Firearm legally, and illegally in the US. In this most recent US atrocity, the gunman had a history of behavioural issues. Whether these were caused by, or reduced by drugs (prescription or illegal) is not yet clear.
UK "Gun Amnesties" have seen many of the "Grandfathers Old Service Revolvers" and other viable firearms, surrendered. When it comes to gun crime in the UK, I don't know how many involve legally owned firearms.
Trump has now announced his intention to ban devices that can convert a semi-automatic rifle to full automatic fire. This is a step in the right direction. Banning alcohol was not a success, it just made it more profitable for those who did not care about the Law.
golf charlie
I wonder what the handgun ban has done for UK handgun crime stats?
Feb 20, 2018 at 11:31 PM | tomo
I do not know, but ......
Reducing Border Controls has made it easier for firearms to enter the UK, particularly from Eastern Europe.
UK urban drug gangs have armed children to carry out hits, so that adults don't get long sentences.
golf charlie
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bump_fire
Trump wants to make it illegal to sell devices that allow assault rifles that have been manufactured so they can only fire "semi automatic", to fire "automatic"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_AK-47_and_M16
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15_style_rifle
"An AR15 is a semi-automatic rifle based on the Colt AR-15 design. After Colt'spatents expired in 1977,[1] an expanded marketplace emerged with many manufacturers producing their own AR-15 variants for commercial sale. These rifles are referred to as "modern sporting rifles" (MSR) by the National Shooting Sports Foundation, a firearms industry trade association, and by some manufacturers.[2]
Since 2010, AR-15 style rifles have become one of the "most beloved and most vilified rifles" in the United States, according to the New York Times.[3] It has been promoted as "America's rifle" by the National Rifle Association. It has also been the weapon used in many mass shootings in the US. [3] Several million are estimated to be in circulation in the United States.[3]"
Previous US Presidents have not tried. Will Trump's opponents oppose this? Sadly, it is 40 years too late.
golf charlie
By now we know that for every TrumpTweet there is another TrumpTweet, word or action saying the exact opposite.
So many signs that the Florida shooter was mentally disturbed, even expelled from school for bad and erratic behavior. Neighbors and classmates knew he was a big problem. Must always report such instances to authorities, again and again!
TrumpTweet, sent a year after he signed an bill that repealed an Obama-Era measure that added people will mental health difficulties to the background check database.
President Donald Trump quietly signed a bill into law Tuesday rolling back an Obama-era regulation that made it harder for people with mental illnesses to purchase a gun.The rule, which was finalized in December, added people receiving Social Security checks for mental illnesses and people deemed unfit to handle their own financial affairs to the national background check database.
President Barack Obama recommended the now-nullified regulation in a 2013 memo following the mass shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School, which left 20 first graders and six others dead. The measure sought to block some people with severe mental health problems from buying guns.
Clearly President Trump has a failing memory. I wonder if he has a gun permit?
Phil Clarke
Phil Clarke
Do you know the detail of that legislation?
Would it have been applicable in the Sandy Hook and Florida cases? (I'd suggest not)
The ubiquity of guns in the USA is an issue - but both parties have not tackled the issue of enforcement . One has to suspect that mental health is not an area that bureaucrats regardless of party affiliation want to get mired in - it might involve actually doing more work.... .
The rules about mental capacity and interaction with MH professionals do not (after a trivial skim on my part) look particularly good (see the legislation you cite). I would say that at a bare minimum that anybody receiving treatment for a chronic MH issue, an episodic healthcare issue related to MH or receiving medication known to have behavioural effects should have any firearms permits revoked - that revocation could be absolute or temporary.
In law there are many offences which only require one witness to trigger (no pun) an actual prosecution or a mandated action on the part of law enforcement - gun permits seem like a good candidate for a "zero tolerance" policy towards allowing those with mental health and psychoactive medication issues having firearms permits. Most developed countries have medication related rules regarding driving / flying - it isn't a stretch to say that those rules should be extended to firearms.
Really ... you can have all the laws you like - but if the people who are paid to enforce the law won't act - where does that leave it? We see that existing rules and procedures are not being implemented - yet calls for a blanket ban on guns persist. Perhaps there should be a zero tolerance policy for law enforcement bureaucrats failing to actually enforce...?
tomo
Phil Clarke, it does seem that Democrats in California have some explaining to do. They have some of the toughest Fire Arms Laws, but highest murder rate.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_California
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state#skiplinks
"The figures show that California had the highest number of gun murders last year - 1,790, which is 68% of all murders that year and equivalent to 3.25 per 100,000 people in the state. Big as that figure is, it's still down by 3% on the previous year. Other key findings include:
• While gun crime is down in the vast majority of states, it is up in Indiana, Arkansas, North Carolina, Louisiana and several of the smaller states
• If you look at the firearms murder rate per 100,000 people, District of Columbia comes out top - with 12 firearms murders per 100,000 men, women and children in the state. There were 77 firearms murders in DC in 2010, down 22% on 2009
• DC is followed by Louisiana (10.16) and Mississippi (7.46)
• DC is also top for firearms robberies per 100,000 people - with 242.56
• If you look at aggravated assaults involving a firearm, Tennessee (137.58) and South Carolina (127.88) come above Arkansas (100.56)"
The District of Columbia comes out top. Another Democrat stronghold. The current Mayor
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muriel_Bowser
"During her first year as Mayor, the District saw a 40% increase in homicides.[60] In July 2015, Bowser attributed the spike in violence to the sale of synthetic marijuana and proposed measures granting police additional authorities for a crackdown on stores selling the substance.[61] After violence continued unabated, in October 2015 Bowser proposed legislation allowing law enforcement officials to perform warrantless searches of violent ex-offenders. The bill was widely opposed by citizen's groups and the D.C. Council."
Phil Clarke, when did Trump start causing these problems? When did Democrats decide to hold Trump responsible for their mistakes and inaction?
golf charlie
Well, we in the UK (and Europe) do have a lot of new laws that prohibit terrorists from being terrorists, yet this does not seem to stop them in their ambition. Perhaps we need to look at “gun control” from a different perspective.
Radical Rodent
@RR
with bells on it.
The official silence about the Las Vegas shooting is simply odd ... some quite simple easily answered questions remain unanswered
tomo
American gun statistics
Firearms deaths are being messed with - almost twice as many people commit suicide as homicide - neither is very nice but - it's all labeled "gun violence".
Some are claiming that 1993-2013 gun US ownership rose by 50% - in the same period gun homicides dropped by 50% - (suspiciously neat) - but - that there is a downward trend is something identified by a research outfit (often accused of having a warmist alarmist stance and a bit lefty...) that many at BH are familiar with - Pew Research - their numbers - there are other views of the stats that seem consistent with this.
The cause célèbre of gun control doesn't want to deal in realities - coffin dancing, grandstanding and Clooney gestures abound - but "no guns" isn't likely to happen and using actual evidence to inform the way ahead sadly isn't an option for many who view the removal of guns from society as a divine crusade. As I understand it the Australian experience of tightening gun control has not been an unalloyed success....
tomo
As I understand it the Australian experience of tightening gun control has not been an unalloyed success....
So, check out the UK murder rate ;-)
Phil Clarke
PC
last time I looked the London rate wasn't exactly something to crow about - eh ? Spent any time on London streets after dark recently ? Why do BBC OB crews have ex special forces minders?
Sometimes comparisons ignore local conditions and one ends up being misled. Restricting ownership of guns is common sense - but it does (for the nth time...) depend on enforcement - I don't see a complete ban being the panacea it's held up to be. Denying loons access to guns in a proactive way - absolutely - portraying average gun owners as a danger to everybody - ... not so much.
Like I pointed out up thread - one can jig about with US stats to remove several metro areas (but always exclude Chicago) and US stats drop dramatically.
tomo
Feb 21, 2018 at 12:55 PM | Radical Rodent
Excluding 9/11, almost all of the mass killings in the USA have been committed by individual US Citizens, not groups, and not from overseas. They have been beneath the radar of those looking for terrorists.
Unfortunately, this particular deranged murderer must have set off so many blips on all traditional crime prevention radars, that nobody noticed, apart from the public.
It will be interesting to see if the NRA have reasons why ordinary citizens need automatic weapons for self defence or shooting bears in the woods. An AR-15 is now a generic term for similar types of Assault Rifle. In the event of a Zombie Apocalypse, I would be happy to have one, and an Uzi, shotgun etc, but I am not convinced of the urgency at the moment.
golf charlie
gc
The 5.56 x 45 round that the "standard" AR-15 uses is specifically designed to inflict maximum damage on humans and is actually banned in many deer hunting scenarios as inhumane. If defending oneself from a Polar bear is the aim - the received wisdom / advice to AR-15 owners is save the last one for yourself....
I am also interested to hear how the bogeymen at the NRA will make a case for that sort of ammunition.
Above all though - how the fuck did the demented little shit slip through all the supposed checks already in place?
A creepy teenager with a history of threatening people and tormenting animals repeatedly getting the attention of law enforcement, actually reported twice to the FBI - the posturing + threats on social media ... I think it's very clear indeed that those paid to enforce the law fell down on the job and are entirely happy to watch the brush fire of recrimination against gun owners and worse that's being whipped up by the media.
tomo
clipe
But the Conservative government went one step further and banned all handguns, with the exception of .22 caliber single-shot weapons, in England, Scotland and Wales. The Labour government that followed banned the .22 caliber guns as well.More powerful guns had already been banned after a mass shooting in southern England's Hungerford in 1987, in which 27-year-old Michael Ryan killed 16 people, as well as himself, in an hours-long rampage. He was armed with a pistol, a hand grenade and an automatic rifle.
After both shootings the government called a gun amnesty, compensating owners for their weapons. After Dunblane, more than 162,000 handguns were surrendered.
There has been one mass shooting in the country since the laws were tightened. Derrick Bird killed 12 people in northern England's Whitehaven in 2010.
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/04/world/gun-control-uk-australia/index.html
34 mass shootings (4 or more victims) in US so far in 2018, 346 last year. There's nowhere in this country that I want to go to that fear of violence prevents me from doing so.
Phil Clarke
The Trump answer to guns is more guns, your maths teacher is going to enter the classroom tooled up
It only works when you have people very adept at using firearms, of which you have many,” Trump said during an emotionally searing session that, extraordinarily, was broadcast live on national television. “It would be teachers and coaches"
And here is the now obligatory example of him saying the exact opposite
Crooked Hillary said that I want guns brought into the school classroom. Wrong!
- 2016 Tweet.
It would be funny if it weren't so serious.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/21/donald-trump-solution-to-school-shootings-arm-teachers-with-guns
Phil Clarke
Feb 22, 2018 at 8:39 AM | Phil Clarke
Trump is trying to ban machine guns (conversion kits) from private ownership, which will be a direct challenge to the NRA. Do you oppose that?
It will not stop nutters having guns, particularly those fuelled and/or motivated, by drugs.
golf charlie
A summary of what is going on behind the scenes, and why 'the Hunters have become the Hunted:
HAGMANN REPORT: Dr Jerome Corsi -- Robust Counter attack by Pres Trump, Feb. 21, 2018
Robert Christopher
Trump is trying to ban machine guns (conversion kits) from private ownership, which will be a direct challenge to the NRA. Do you oppose that?
I would certainly support an actual ban on automatic weapons, banning the bump-stock thing is of course a tiny step in the right direction, but if that's all that is proposed as the 'solution' it will be rightfully condemned as woefully inadequate.
Briefing notes captured by photographers at US president Donald Trump’s White House listening session with survivors of gun violence show that he needed to be reminded to say “I hear you”.
Close-up pictures of the note revealed that it had five points, of which the first was a reminder to ask the question: “What would you most want me to know about your experience”. The second question listed is “What can we do to make you feel safe?” [...]
Trump did not appear to directly use any of the questions or phrases on the card at the meeting, but did thank those who had attended. “Thank you for pouring out your hearts,” Trump said “because the world is watching and we’re going to come up with a solution.”
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/22/i-hear-you-trump-uses-cue-cards-to-remind-him-to-listen-to-shooting-survivors
Phil Clarke
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/feb/22/i-hear-you-trump-uses-cue-cards-to-remind-him-to-listen-to-shooting-survivors
Feb 22, 2018 at 11:19 AM | Phil Clarke
Hardly a neutral source
golf charlie
Feb 22, 2018 at 10:34 AM | Robert Christopher
From your link:
"Clinton couldn't even win a rigged election"
If that is proved, jail sentences should follow. Do they still have a death sentence for treason?
golf charlie
quoting the poster
This may not prove God exists, but it proves He has a sense of humor.