Discussion > EU must be joking
Golf Charlie: why else do you think that I used the term “EUSSR” for the dream that the likes of Juncker et al wishes to create?
It is a dream that is not too far from them realising, which is why we have to leave. If we do leave, the EU will slowly crumble, with most Europeans hardly noticing, but appreciating the improvements that it will bring – if we don’t, the entire edifice will eventually collapse, anyway, and we can only hope that it will not be too bloody.
Radical Rodent
Cameron's pitch today re the EU and peace in Europe is rather bereft of reason. It is true Europe has begat many wide ranging conflicts. Which is a good reason for it not to be left to it's own devices.
Hence in 1949 the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation. Since when Europe has mainly been a peaceful place.
Why? Because the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation has many influential democratic members who reside out with Europe.
The major danger to this practical status quo is Angela's Mystical Magic Army
I would not like to see an EU version of NATO.
Green Sand
Radical Rodent, precisely because it was and is, worth repeating!
golf charlie
Green Sand
NATO did not stop tension between European states in the post war era,my bold, from Wikipedia.
When tensions between France and Germany rose over the control of the then vital coal and steel industries, Monnet and his associates conceived the idea of a European Community. On 9 May 1950, with the agreement of Chancellor Konrad Adenauer of West Germany, French Minister of Foreign Affairs Robert Schuman made a declaration in the name of the French government. This declaration, prepared by Monnet for Schuman, proposed integration of the French and German coal and steel industries under joint control, a so-called High Authority, open to the other countries of Europe. Schuman declared:
Subsequently the threat of a Russian exploitation of European/EU disputes meant that it was prudent to negotiate problems away rather than come to blows. There is still a lot of unfinished business within Europe some of it dating back quite a while. It can be argued that NATO is a threat to world peace with its current membership, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia have significant ethnic Russian populations and Kalingrad is a Russian enclave surrounded by NATO members. Putin is not well known for standing back when an opportunity to extend Russia's borders presents itself. WOuld NATO support the Baltic states?
The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia is having problems joining both NATO and the EU because of its name.and I understand that some politicians in FYROM support the idea of a United Macedonia, which would include territories of Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, and Serbia. Would NATO support Greece in the event of Russia supporting FYROM?
That's before you get onto separatist movements taking advantage of the situation. former Iron Curtain countries with separatists and NATO members include Bulgaria, Croatia, Romania, Czech Republic EU members with strong separatist groups, more than one in most cases include Belgium, France, Spain, Greece, Denmark, UK would Russia be happy with some of these groups turning to them for help and what would NATO do about it?
So saying NATO has been and will be the only way to maintain the peace in Europe is not actually that accurate. David Cameron had a better handle of the situation than Boris Johnson when he included both the EU and NATO as organisations which promote peaceful if not loving co-existence. People are reluctant to enter into conflicts when they think that there is more to lose than gain. One of the things that war destroys in national and personal wealth. Whatever you think about it in the UK, most Europeans think the EU has created wealth and well being for them..
I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but it worries me that Boris Johnston doesn't even acknowledge their existence, it worries me still further that he may not be aware they exist, the latter may be more likely.
SandyS
Robert Christopher
Are you absolutely certain that the Schnapps, Brandy, Aquavit, Grappa, Ouzo and other European distillers wouldn't get together to persuade the EU to slap tariffs on to their most successful competitor?
Seems a bit optimistic to me, despite Cognac being twinned with Perth
SandyS
SandyS - if I remember right, Britain is Champagne's biggest customer.
Martin A
Martin A
If we were not previously the biggest Champagne customer, we will be on June 24th ^.^
Dung
Yeh, but who'll be in Alan Sugar's Cafe drinking weak tea out of paper cups?
Alan Kendall
SandyS on May 10, 2016 at 11:42 AM
If they are that beastly, they will do it anyway. Just look at the Working Hours Directive that was forced through using H&S. And, if they are that beastly, why hand over even more power to them: it's called co-dependency. They want to Euro-ise our Courts, Police, Coastguards, Currency; the list gets longer and longer!
Robert Christopher
Keith Phair, UKIP branch chairman at Suffolk Coastal, has had his petition demanding 'a public inquiry into the UK Government's culture of lying to the voters' accepted online. Please sign here (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/128217} and feel free to share it. It's timely and with just 10,000 signatures is guaranteed to elicit a formal response which could only be a good thing for the Leave campaign.
Dung
Martin A
Look how much HMRC takes in tax from Champagne sales, justifying super tax on Brexit Whisky and Gin until Scotland re-joins when it's just Gin;-)
SandyS
I was expecting ID-S to be asked about "Auf Wiedersehen, Pet" today but he wasn't.
SandyS
For an active and reasonably informed forum debate see:
ARRSE - Combined EU Referendum thread
Join and contribute to the debate.
P
Pcar
Pcar
Judging by the poll at the top of that link David Cameron is on a hiding to nothing, it's not run by and for UKIP is it?
SandyS
SandyS,
Forum thread is not run by or for any party, person or view and the overly aggressive thread Mods are pro- EU.
Like here, there are many very knowledgeable posters and few moon-howler loons/Dorks
P
Pcar
Hannan Hit's it ... 6m Youtube Hit from the Spectator Brexit Debate (Max-up the volume)..Better audio is on the powerglobal.us report (Pity they spell it Brusseles)
@Dung earlier mentioned a 46min clip
" I just watched a speech by Danniel Hannan to libertarian students in Berlin (2015 in Berlin), this man grows in my estimation every time I listen to him.
stewgreen
Today Boris is getting a great deal of 'stick' on the BBC for telling it like it is. Apparently the words Hitler and Muslim are both now politically incorrect, the establishment has only to see those words in order to denounce the writer/speaker, no need to read the rest of his words.
Boris believes that Hitler and the EU had the same aims but used different methods to realise those aims, I can not fault his logic at all? Actually it is possible that Hitler's aims did have a greater legitimacy since he appealed to the currently elected government to grant him the power to act.
Dung
Even Norway has told the EU power grabbers where to stick their aspirations :) :
"Ever since Norway brokered the EEA Agreement with the EU, the oil industry has been an area of conflict.
Now the EU has again attempted to pressure the Scandinavian country into giving bureaucrats direct influence over the oil and gas industry.
However, the Ministry of Petroleum and Energy (MPE) has said Brussels has no business meddling in oil nations’ Offshore Directive.
MPE officials said: “The government does not consider the Offshore Directive of EEA relevance.
“This has conveyed to the EU on several occasions. Norway's position on this issue remains unchanged.”
Brussels bureaucrats want Norway to introduce EU rules on health, safety and environment on the offshore industry, however the oil nation is refusing to bow to the pressure.
Government officials added that Norway has unique expertise in the area and EU meddling is unwanted.
The EU and Norway have been in a tug of war over the oil industry for over 20 years, but the disagreement deepened three years ago when Brussels introduced its own directive called Safety of Offshore Oil and Gas Operations Directive."
No means NO: Norway REFUSES to bow to EU’s bid for control over North Sea oil industry
For those who think that we can remain outside the Euro-zone, outside the Schengen Area, have our own judiciary and police and have the ability to have powerful kettles, without a continuous fight to defend the powers that we already have should ponder on this latest power grab.
Health and Safety was how they forced the EWTD on Britain with confusion, staff shortages and debt in the NHS after loosing the argument through the normal channels.
The people with expertise in North Sea activity are already involved and don't need people from land locked countries to show their arrogance and stupidity, again!
Robert Christopher
Entropic man
EM
"Godwin's law itself can be abused as a distraction, diversion or even as censorship, fallaciously miscasting an opponent's argument as hyperbole when the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate."
Dung
Dung
In this case Boris Johnson's reference was hyperbole. The last time I checked, the EU was not an aggressive military dictatorship.
Entropic man
Entropic man on May 16, 2016 at 1:11 PM
Two out of three isn't bad going ...
Robert Christopher
EM
READ it again! Boris was comparing the 'aims' of the EU with the 'aims' oif Hitler; the unification of Europe under central control.
Dung
Dung, Robert Christopher
What of Hitler's other aims? I suspect that lebensraum, genocide and Aryan racial purity are not on the EU's list either.
I doubt that a even a federal Europe could be considered under central control. Think of the trouble that the US federal government has controlling its own states.
I am rather concerned that a post Brexit Britain is being portrayed as run on principles generally regarded as right wing. The prospect of a government with Nigel Farage as IL Duce makes any prospect of a federal Europe pale by comparison.
Historically individual freedom is maximised under politically central governments. As one moves away from the centre to left or right, state control limits freedom for the individual.
Entropic man
"Liz Truss ...:
“There’s a huge risk to the whisky industry. If we were to leave the single market it would mean lots more cost for their business.”
A neat line, but what does the industry itself think?
David Frost, the pro-Remain chief executive of the Scotch Whiskey Association, has previously argued on his website that:
“The existence of the industry does not depend on the EU. It depends on our ability to make a great product, at acceptable cost, and to beat the competition. Over the last hundred years we have always done that and I am confident we will carry on doing so in the future.”
Order-Order.com: Liz Truss' Scotch Botch
It's beyond farce.